[Brenda]

jeff744 jeff744:

Brenda Brenda:

No, you are paying someone to watch them and hope they will teach them something, but they are not raising them. That is not their job, and that is not what Jeff meant either.

If you are not willing to send them to a daycare (pending the lack of family/friends) while you work (very few jobs will put you at a loss on that) so that you can make ends meet then I hope you are either willing to live on peanuts with your kids (who will suffer from lack of proper nutrients) or give them to a family that can actually afford to feed the child properly. Loving your kids isn't always as straightforward as keeping them no matter how hard it gets, it is also acknowledging when others can look after them better than you can.

Daycare is free? When you work for $10/hr, and daycare (or a sitter) is $8/hr, what would your choice be?

Oh, another thing, daycare where I live closes during EVERY school holiday, regardless of the age of the kids. That means 2 weeks at Christmas, 10 weeks in Summer, and 2 weeks in Spring. My boss is not going to pay me for the time I am not there. How am I supposed to solve THAT problem? Teenagers? Sure, they will do it for free (not).

[jeff744]

Brenda Brenda:

jeff744 jeff744:

Brenda Brenda:

No, you are paying someone to watch them and hope they will teach them something, but they are not raising them. That is not their job, and that is not what Jeff meant either.

If you are not willing to send them to a daycare (pending the lack of family/friends) while you work (very few jobs will put you at a loss on that) so that you can make ends meet then I hope you are either willing to live on peanuts with your kids (who will suffer from lack of proper nutrients) or give them to a family that can actually afford to feed the child properly. Loving your kids isn't always as straightforward as keeping them no matter how hard it gets, it is also acknowledging when others can look after them better than you can.

Daycare is free? When you work for $10/hr, and daycare (or a sitter) is $8/hr, what would your choice be?

I would ask where you are going that charges $8/hr, all the ones I found were charging ~3-4/hr (I assume it was monthly since $550 a week is ludicrous) and that leaves plenty of room for profit when min wage is $9.25 in Sask and about to go up.

[Brenda]

Per child. You have 2, remember?
Just an average of daycare costs in Saskatchewan, cost per child per month, unless part time, then per day:
http://www.godaycare.com/child-care-cost/saskatchewan

[jeff744]

Brenda Brenda:

Per child. You have 2, remember?
Just a random daycare in Saskatchewan, cost per child per month, unless part time, then per day:
http://www.godaycare.com/child-care-cost/saskatchewan

Then I'd say look for a job as a waitress, in addition to min wage I have seen them walk home on average days with $30 in tips and good days can be upwards of $80.

http://www.aeei.gov.sk.ca/saskatchewan- ... eport-2009

Hell, take a chance on student loans and get something simple like hairstyling (p.192) while working on the side (it will royally suck before you graduate but will pay off in the long run). I had a dentist tell me how she went through university supporting a kid alone, she studied and worked during that time and never had free time but now she is going to be pretty well off.

There are ways to avoid the worst if you try.

[Brenda]

Waitresses make their money at dinner time and at night. Day cares are closed at 5:30. I don't want to make a problem out of everything, but oversimplifying is not working either. Telling women to just "give up their children" is very disrespectful.

Who took care of her child while she was not there? Her family or friends, for free?

[jeff744]

Brenda Brenda:

Waitresses make their money at dinner time and at night. Day cares are closed at 5:30. I don't want to make a problem out of everything, but oversimplifying is not working either. Telling women to just "give up their children" is very disrespectful.

Who took care of her child while she was not there? Her family or friends, for free?

There are ways to keep your kids but you need to be willing to give up time with them. If you are unwilling to make any sacrifices you may instead lose everything. I support helping out single parents that are at least trying to work, but if you are not looking for a job and just expecting the rest to pay then I am not willing to help at all. Giving up children is a last resort, and it is a blunt fact that must be accepted if you cannot support them. It would be the hardest choice you ever made but if your kids are starving and you cannot help them then they need to face reality and accept that maybe somebody else needs to look after them. I am not saying you never see them again (you can always go the non-anonymous route and ask the adopting parents to at least be able to see them time to time) but when your kids are starving you need to make a choice. It would be nice to prevent that but if you help one that actually needs it there will be several there to use the same claiming method to take the money and buy themselves something nice instead.

Even just working weekends can make a world of difference in your lifestyle and that is when the most people are around to babysit.

[Brenda]

jeff744 jeff744:

Brenda Brenda:

Waitresses make their money at dinner time and at night. Day cares are closed at 5:30. I don't want to make a problem out of everything, but oversimplifying is not working either. Telling women to just "give up their children" is very disrespectful.

Who took care of her child while she was not there? Her family or friends, for free?

There are ways to keep your kids but you need to be willing to give up time with them. If you are unwilling to make any sacrifices you may instead lose everything. I support helping out single parents that are at least trying to work, but if you are not looking for a job and just expecting the rest to pay then I am not willing to help at all. Giving up children is a last resort, and it is a blunt fact that must be accepted if you cannot support them. It would be the hardest choice you ever made but if your kids are starving and you cannot help them then they need to face reality and accept that maybe somebody else needs to look after them. I am not saying you never see them again (you can always go the non-anonymous route and ask the adopting parents to at least be able to see them time to time) but when your kids are starving you need to make a choice. It would be nice to prevent that but if you help one that actually needs it there will be several there to use the same claiming method to take the money and buy themselves something nice instead.

Even just working weekends can make a world of difference in your lifestyle and that is when the most people are around to babysit.

And that is where welfare kicks in. So that people (single parents, families, whatever) have the chance to get back on their feet (it is only 2 years out of 5, so really, not something to be all yippie about), when they need it, so they do not HAVE to give up their children for adoption. We live in a modern society, you are crazy if you think that anyone is giving anyone up, just because YOU think you should not have to take care of others.
"It would be nice to prevent that"

Working weekends won't do anything for you when you are on welfare, but it might get you off, so you don't have to pay into it anymore. You are dumb if you think that "friends and family" wants to always babysit your children for free.

[Gunnair]

Not to put you down and I agree with a lot of what you say here, Jeff, but at 21, you might lack a bit of that life experience when it comes to the dynamics of having and caring for children.

The world is not as black and white as you make it to be and suggesting that a single mother suddenly on her own and on welfare simply farm her kids out to someone until she gets on her feet is simply ridiculous.

[jeff744]

Brenda Brenda:

jeff744 jeff744:

Brenda Brenda:

Waitresses make their money at dinner time and at night. Day cares are closed at 5:30. I don't want to make a problem out of everything, but oversimplifying is not working either. Telling women to just "give up their children" is very disrespectful.

Who took care of her child while she was not there? Her family or friends, for free?

There are ways to keep your kids but you need to be willing to give up time with them. If you are unwilling to make any sacrifices you may instead lose everything. I support helping out single parents that are at least trying to work, but if you are not looking for a job and just expecting the rest to pay then I am not willing to help at all. Giving up children is a last resort, and it is a blunt fact that must be accepted if you cannot support them. It would be the hardest choice you ever made but if your kids are starving and you cannot help them then they need to face reality and accept that maybe somebody else needs to look after them. I am not saying you never see them again (you can always go the non-anonymous route and ask the adopting parents to at least be able to see them time to time) but when your kids are starving you need to make a choice. It would be nice to prevent that but if you help one that actually needs it there will be several there to use the same claiming method to take the money and buy themselves something nice instead.

Even just working weekends can make a world of difference in your lifestyle and that is when the most people are around to babysit.

And that is where welfare kicks in. So that people (single parents, families, whatever) have the chance to get back on their feet (it is only 2 years out of 5, so really, not something to be all yippie about), when they need it, so they do not HAVE to give up their children for adoption. We live in a modern society, you are crazy if you think that anyone is giving anyone up, just because YOU think you should not have to take care of others.
"It would be nice to prevent that"

Working weekends won't do anything for you when you are on welfare, but it might get you off, so you don't have to pay into it anymore. You are dumb if you think that "friends and family" wants to always babysit your children for free.

My issue is more so that there are more families out there on welfare that refuse to work, they are deadbeats and while I would love to help those that actually need it, every time you help one person that needs it there are groups of deadbeats that will go after the same benefits and try to stay on them. My own opinion has been heavily shaped by where I grew up, almost every single mom was in that situation as a result of a boyfriend/husband that everyone knew was no good and were surprised when they were dumped. I feel sorry for a lot of the kids that will be raised by a lot of those welfare families because the chances are that they will end up in the exact same situation as their parents.

Working weekend would net you an extra $8000 before taxes, way too low to get bumped off.

[jeff744]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Not to put you down and I agree with a lot of what you say here, Jeff, but at 21, you might lack a bit of that life experience when it comes to the dynamics of having and caring for children.

The world is not as black and white as you make it to be and suggesting that a single mother suddenly on her own and on welfare simply farm her kids out to someone until she gets on her feet is simply ridiculous.

Assuming she has no higher education it is not ridiculous to expect them to get a job to help support their kid. Will they lose time with them? Sure, but so does almost every working family, even working one or two days a week can make a massive difference in your diet and ability to look after your kid. If you have a person that expects welfare to get them through it all without sacrificing any time with their kids then there is an issue, if the welfare isn't enough to support the kid and the mother refuses to work but has the ability to do so, there is an issue.

[Brenda]

jeff744 jeff744:

Working weekend would net you an extra $8000 before taxes, way too low to get bumped off.

Ehhmmm... you will just get an addition to what you make to welfare level. You don't get to keep your welfare checks AND your $8000/yr.

[OnTheIce]

Brenda Brenda:

No offense, but where does the single mom of 2 kids leave her kids at night when she's working DHL night shift, and where do they go when mom sleeps during the day?

Mom stays on welfare until she finds a day job that allows her to have her kids in subsidized day care.

Once mom starts working also gets the CCTB and another benefits to make ends meet.

[rickc]

I realize that I am late to the party, for that I apologize. I think that this is a fantastic thread! I feel that both sides of the debate are being represented very well by the participants. I have a great deal of personal experience in this topic. I used to see things in total black and white, but have come to realize that there is a lot of grey out there.

I grew up poor. My parents were too young and irresponsible to have children. Me and my sister grew up in a trailer park in Appalachia. I was always resentfull of growing up poor. The worst part was the school bus ride to school and back. The bus would pick us poor kids up first at one central busstop [ where we would freeze to death, or get soaking wet in the rain waiting for the bus]. Then we would proceed to the wealthy part of town where the bus would pull up in front of each house and honk the horn for the little rich bastards to come out. They never got wet or cold. How I despised them! The trip home was even worse. The bus would stop at our shithole busstop for all us white trash to debark. All the wealthy kids would laugh at us as we got of the bus. To this day I want to kick someone's ass when I think back to those days. I made a vow to myself at that time that my children would never have to endure that kind of humiliation. I thought like Jeff744. I waited till I was 30 something and well off before having children. I never had unprotected sex or ran the risk of having children that I could not support. I can see how responsible people get angry at irresponsible people for having children that they can not support, and than expect other people to support them. I get that. There is a lot of that going on. I can respect Jeff744's veiwpoint on this.

On the other hand, I never thought that I would be a single parent living on just my income in my 40's either. I have kept my vow that I made when I was young and poor. My daughter has never lived in a trailer park or any other trashy,dangerous neighborhood. I have never had to receive government assistance. For that I am grateful,and fortunate. However I can see how bad things can happen to even the most careful and prepared among us. Life can throw us a lot of curveballs. Death,illness,divorce,layoffs,etc. No one is truly prepared for every eventuality. There is no way in hell I would ever give up my daughter. There is no limit to what I would do to prevent that from happening. No limit whatsoever. When it comes to my kid, I can see Brenda's veiwpoint. I am never going to lose my kid over financial problems. Anyone who would willinly give up their kids,have no business being parents IMHO. We need to find some central ground to these problems. Lots of grey out there.

[Canadian_Mind]

andyt andyt:

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

I'm pretty sure a single mother of 2 children with no family and no friends to help her out is the exception, not the norm.

Really? No childcare problems in Canada at all, huh? Even for two parent families, never mind single parents.

"Exception" doesn't mean non-existant. I'm sure there are cases out there. But I don't think the government should have to jump through hoops for rare cases. No need to over-complicate a system that is satisfactory for 90% of the population. Having a system that caters to even more would be an unneeded expense. Instead, have a separate system in place that will look after those last 10% on a case-by-case basis that aren't adequately served by the "current system".

By "current system" I mean a welfare system that is revamped to be better then the current one.

[andyt]

jeff744 jeff744:

Brenda Brenda:

jeff744 jeff744:

If you are not willing to send them to a daycare (pending the lack of family/friends) while you work (very few jobs will put you at a loss on that) so that you can make ends meet then I hope you are either willing to live on peanuts with your kids (who will suffer from lack of proper nutrients) or give them to a family that can actually afford to feed the child properly. Loving your kids isn't always as straightforward as keeping them no matter how hard it gets, it is also acknowledging when others can look after them better than you can.

Daycare is free? When you work for $10/hr, and daycare (or a sitter) is $8/hr, what would your choice be?

I would ask where you are going that charges $8/hr, all the ones I found were charging ~3-4/hr (I assume it was monthly since $550 a week is ludicrous) and that leaves plenty of room for profit when min wage is $9.25 in Sask and about to go up.

So you consider $5.25 - $6.25 an hour a sufficient wage for two people to live on? Holy fuck.