[andyt]

QBC QBC:

The most powerful and destructive weapon on the face of the Earth is religion....

Nah, it's human aggression and tribalism. Religion is just one way it gets expressed. But WWII say, or Stalin - can't put those on religion. Religion has also done a lot of good. The reason we have the ideas of individual liberty now is because of Christianity. And Christianity didn't develop in a vaccuum - it's based on Judaism and earlier religons. Buddhism spread peace around Asia - for a while, until overpowered by more aggressive people.

[Guy_Fawkes]

andyt andyt:

QBC QBC:

The most powerful and destructive weapon on the face of the Earth is religion....

Nah, it's human aggression and tribalism. Religion is just one way it gets expressed. But WWII say, or Stalin - can't put those on religion. Religion has also done a lot of good. The reason we have the ideas of individual liberty now is because of Christianity. And Christianity didn't develop in a vaccuum - it's based on Judaism and earlier religons. Buddhism spread peace around Asia - for a while, until overpowered by more aggressive people.

I think you are going to have to back that up...

[andyt]

Guy_Fawkes Guy_Fawkes:

andyt andyt:

QBC QBC:

The most powerful and destructive weapon on the face of the Earth is religion....

Nah, it's human aggression and tribalism. Religion is just one way it gets expressed. But WWII say, or Stalin - can't put those on religion. Religion has also done a lot of good. The reason we have the ideas of individual liberty now is because of Christianity. And Christianity didn't develop in a vaccuum - it's based on Judaism and earlier religons. Buddhism spread peace around Asia - for a while, until overpowered by more aggressive people.

I think you are going to have to back that up...

What part in particular, or do you doubt all of it? None of those ideas are original to me, but if I give you a link of some other guy saying it, then it's believable?

[Guy_Fawkes]

The part that is highlighted, where you attribute the creation of modern liberty to Christianity.

This is why people call you a troll andy, you have to prove your claim that inspiration of individual liberty now (ie Modern Liberal Values) are because of Christianity. Making grand assumptions or statements without facts, for no other purpose other than to continue a fallacious argument, is trolling.

[romanP]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

We exterminated Nazism and Japanese militarism without exterminating the Germans and the Japanese. There exists a way to put an end to Islam without slaughtering every last Arab or whoever practices it. We're just too worried about being called 'racist' to even consider looking at stomping out the source of the problem.

You can't get rid of an idea without killing a lot of people. What you're proposing would still amount to genocide.

You wouldn't get called racist for stamping out the source of the problem if you acknowledged that Islam itself is not the source of the problem.

[romanP]

andyt andyt:

The reason we have the ideas of individual liberty now is because of Christianity.

It's more likely because of the Magna Carta, which makes no references whatsoever to the Bible.

[Bodah]

Guy_Fawkes Guy_Fawkes:

The part that is highlighted, where you attribute the creation of modern liberty to Christianity.

This is why people call you a troll andy, you have to prove your claim that inspiration of individual liberty now (ie Modern Liberal Values) are because of Christianity. Making grand assumptions or statements without facts, for no other purpose other than to continue a fallacious argument, is trolling.

Actually there is some creedence to what he's saying. In the case of atheism for example I can't think of any other society such as ours built on Christian beliefs where atheism was allowed to flourish and not be prosecuted for atheist beliefs. The same can't be said for many other societies even to this day.

They're are still extremes of christian beliefs but for the most part it is very accepting of other beliefs, values and mindsets and could be argued that, that in itself could allow for a place for modern liberal values to grow and flourish.

North America for example is the only place where this could happen;

You have two neighbours. One is a peace loving, I don't believe in guns atheist.

His neighbour is a praise the lord pass the ammo type. The atheist neighbor is a victim of a brutal home invasion one day. Cleetus comes to the rescue with his remington.

But then I'm probably just talking out of my ass again.

[Guy_Fawkes]

Bodah Bodah:

Actually there is some creedence to what he's saying. In the case of atheism for example I can't think of any other society such as ours built on Christian beliefs where atheism was allowed to flourish and not be prosecuted for atheist beliefs. The same can't be said for many other societies even to this day.

The ability to follow atheism without persecution is not a Christian value, that right comes from secular beliefs in equality.

[GreenTiger]

Some A-Stan students want the Reverend put on trial for burning the Koran in an international court.

While I agree that the Reverend is a sick attention whore I think the students need to collectively take a pill, calm down and just get on with their own business.

[ShepherdsDog]

Guy_Fawkes Guy_Fawkes:

The part that is highlighted, where you attribute the creation of modern liberty to Christianity.

This is why people call you a troll andy, you have to prove your claim that inspiration of individual liberty now (ie Modern Liberal Values) are because of Christianity. Making grand assumptions or statements without facts, for no other purpose other than to continue a fallacious argument, is trolling.

There can be no argument that Christianity played an important part in the development of modern democracy in Europe. Democratic traditions in Germanic societies do predate Christianity, but in this case Andy is out of character and not trolling when he points out the role Christianity and Judaism played in the creation of our modern political systems in the West.

PS
Even in modern times we can see the positive role religion has played in our political system. The Social Gospel preached by Protestants emphasized that we are our brothers' keepers. It was from Christianity that most of our social democratic movements arose.

[EyeBrock]

I have to agree Shep. And andy had a rep worthy post there.

[andyt]

You guys use the term trolling way too loosely. If what I wrote above it considered trolling, I intend to continue with same. I asked for clarification on what part you were talking about GF - because on my monitor bolding on CKA doesn't show up very well.

http://www.newsweekly.com.au/articles/2005jun04_c.html

http://books.google.ca/books?id=T8SLtC2 ... 2OOfs&sig=

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articl ... wh0139.htm

http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2005/09/ ... n-schmidt/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_humanism

http://mclane.fresno.k12.ca.us/wilson98 ... PGC001.PDF

http://www.icsresources.org/content/cur ... zation.pdf

ETC

Actually another big thing was the printing press and translation of the bible into lay languages. People could read for themselves what Jesus taught, and it sure seemed to say they were equal in Heaven vs the aristocracy. Radical stuff.

[andyt]

Guy_Fawkes Guy_Fawkes:

Making grand assumptions or statements without facts, for no other purpose other than to continue a fallacious argument, is trolling.

There are no facts in this case. Can't recreate results in a lab. There are only people's ideas on the matter. Interpretations of the historical record. And a lot of people agree with me. But so what if they don't, so what if it's only my idea. That makes expressing it trolling?

Shep thinks I'm not trolling because he agrees with me in this case. But when I put out leftist economic ideas he says I'm envious and must be working at a minimum wage job. But I'm the troll.

Nuts

[GreenTiger]

Aren't we getting close to the Annual Draw Muhammed Day?

[EyeBrock]

Nice story/comment in the NP about this whole situation being agitated by Iran and Karzai.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/201 ... -in-mazar/