[Yogi]

[quote="andyt"]Fine, but my article talks about an exhaustive study that found evidence to the contrary of what you're saying. The earlier study it was based on were also subject to criticism of methodology, which this one addressed. Maybe we'll have to go with Bruce and just call them all economist talk, and that we don't know. I'd still rather see more money in the hands of the working poor.[/quote]



You have finally made a statement on this subject that I can agree with! About the only way this is going to happen, is thru education-upgrades of the same working poor. And the programs and grants ARE already in place for people to take advantage of. It's a very tough 'row to hoe', but it can be done. One only need find the 'will within'.

[Bruce_the_vii]

I think you can be hopeful about the next 10 to 20 years.

There will be more growth, the aging population will shrink the labour force, the baby boomer retirement will open up skilled and professional jobs and a tighter labour market will make it easier to move to where the jobs are as well as edge up the de facto minimum wage. If the government takes advantage of these openings there could be better jobs opportunities.

In Toronto here any social gathering of a dozen adults will have someone with job issues. And if you take into consideration friends and associates of the dozen you have a general problem. These people that think it's all laughable must not have been out for years and years.

[bootlegga]

Bruce_the_vii Bruce_the_vii:

The trouble with "better education" is that it does not affect the number and conditions of the jobs at the bottom. They are different topics. These days the bottom is rather large and getting out of it a bit of a scramble. Also it's people with ability these day, particularly women who return to work after bring up kids. Canada is about "good jobs", the issue needs more public debate.

Fair enough, but burger flipper at McDonald's or coffee maker at Tim Horton's is not supposed to be a lifelong career, it's supposed to be a relatively temporary job one takes at the beginning/end of his career to either develop skills or help pay your expenses while your semi-retired.

Even if you can't afford technical college or university, there is always night school where you can learn skills applicable in the business world so you can get a job that pays better than minimum wage. There are also a fair number of unskilled jobs that pay $50,000/year out there that require little/no education. If you don't like working for minimum wage, don't.

[andyt]

Yogi Yogi:

You have finally made a statement on this subject that I can agree with! About the only way this is going to happen, is thru education-upgrades of the same working poor. And the programs and grants ARE already in place for people to take advantage of. It's a very tough 'row to hoe', but it can be done. One only need find the 'will within'.

Well I don't agree with you. What education is required to serve coffee at Timmies or all the other low skill service jobs out there that need doing? You educate even more people than we already have, and they'll either be over educated or compete for jobs with higher requirements and drive down wages there (that's already happening with immigrants, they have reduced professional wages to some degree). Meanwhile,either all those service jobs don't get done, or we import immigrants to do those service jobs at low wages are we're right back where we started - a group of working poor. Nope, any full time job should pay a living wage. Or at least be at the low income cutoff, which for Vancouver for a single person is $11.11/hr.

[Bruce_the_vii]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Fair enough, but burger flipper at McDonald's or coffee maker at Tim Horton's is not supposed to be a lifelong career, it's supposed to be a relatively temporary job one takes at the beginning/end of his career to either develop skills or help pay your expenses while your semi-retired.

Even if you can't afford technical college or university, there is always night school where you can learn skills applicable in the business world so you can get a job that pays better than minimum wage. There are also a fair number of unskilled jobs out there that require little/no education. If you don't like working for minimum wage, don't.

Oh, I agree - training first. I personally don't approve of people that get general arts education at university before training. But the people at the bottom will never be very competitive at school, women are still oriented to raising children, and people get caught - say by pregnancy. There's immigrants. So it's an issue. I make it an issue of getting immigration numbers better timed, which would raise the de facto minimum wage to maybe $12.50

[bootlegga]

Yogi Yogi:

You have finally made a statement on this subject that I can agree with! About the only way this is going to happen, is thru education-upgrades of the same working poor. And the programs and grants ARE already in place for people to take advantage of. It's a very tough 'row to hoe', but it can be done. One only need find the 'will within'.

That's exactly the path I took from making $7/hour to making $28/hour.

Education. I got a Bachelor's and then a Masters a decade later and once I get some more experience, I'll be making about six figures.

This comes from a guy who twelve years ago was making $9.50/hour at Earl's.

Like I said, if you don't like working for minimum wage, then don't. Do something about it instead of waiting for the government to do something.

[bootlegga]

Bruce_the_vii Bruce_the_vii:

bootlegga bootlegga:

Fair enough, but burger flipper at McDonald's or coffee maker at Tim Horton's is not supposed to be a lifelong career, it's supposed to be a relatively temporary job one takes at the beginning/end of his career to either develop skills or help pay your expenses while your semi-retired.

Even if you can't afford technical college or university, there is always night school where you can learn skills applicable in the business world so you can get a job that pays better than minimum wage. There are also a fair number of unskilled jobs that pay $50,000/year out there that require little/no education. If you don't like working for minimum wage, don't.

Oh, I agree - training first. I personally don't approve of people that get general arts education at university before training. But the people at the bottom will never be very competitive at school, women are still oriented to raising children, and people get caught - say by pregnancy. There's immigrants. So it's an issue. I make it an issue of getting immigration numbers better timed, which would raise the de facto minimum wage to maybe $12.50

There is nothing wrong with a general arts education. After I got my BA, I went from making $9.50/hour as a cook/manager to making more than twice that in an office.

And saying that women are still oriented to raising children is plain sexist and mysognistic. Drop by a university sometime and see how many women are there getting advanced degrees and doing cutting edge research. Pregnancy may take some women out of the workforce temporarily, but most of them are right back at it in 12 months or less. Conversely, I can and do care for my daughter and I like to think that I'm just as good at it as my wife is.

[QBC]

Now where is MrC when you need him.......

It's too bad he's off having another "world view reformation", I think I would have enjoyed some of his insightful commentary on this issue.

[Bruce_the_vii]

There are lots of women in university. However lots of women still dedicate themselves to raising family. Women are not doing as well as men yet. The entire retail sector is such women. Just saying women without careers is part of the mix as of yet.

[Yogi]

Bruce_the_vii Bruce_the_vii:

There are lots of women in university. However lots of women still dedicate themselves to raising family. Women are not doing as well as men yet. The entire retail sector is such women. Just saying women without careers is part of the mix as of yet.

And then there are those women who choose to better their lot in life and put in the NECESSARY hard work to do so! Like Boots said 'if you're not happy with your lot in life, perhaps because your current level of education isn't 'doing it for you' then quit whining about it and get off your ass and do what is necessary yourself!

http://www.archives.expressnews.ualbert ... /6179.html

[Bruce_the_vii]

This issue came up in the 1960's when women started having careers. They call women that both have a career and family "super women". Here in Toronto the entire suburbs is made up of two income families. I call these women "tax angles" because their high family income means they pay a lot of tax as well as all the rest. Anyone here can tell you just working is a grind.

[Yogi]

Bruce_the_vii Bruce_the_vii:

This issue came up in the 1960's when women started having careers. They call women that both have a career and family "super women". Here in Toronto the entire suburbs is made up of two income families. I call these women "tax angles" because their high family income means they pay a lot of tax as well as all the rest. Anyone here can tell you just working is a grind.

I whole-heartedly agree that 'Just working is a grind' it is also justification for higher education! As anyone here can tell you!

[Bruce_the_vii]

That's certainly true. However I work as a courier (despite my computer science degree) and in amongst the working class they aren't training oriented. For one they are not good at school and will not get the marks to move on to good job. I think it's nuts but they "make a go of it" at a firm without training. That's the working class. Educating everyone would not change the fact there are mundane jobs to fill. Some of them do well with the company and become company men, learn the field.

[Yogi]

Bruce_the_vii Bruce_the_vii:

That's certainly true. However I work as a courier (despite my computer science degree) and in amongst the working class they aren't training oriented. For one they are not good at school and will not get the marks to move on to good job. I think it's nuts but they "make a go of it" at a firm without training. That's the working class. Educating everyone would not change the fact there are mundane jobs to fill. Some of them do well with the company and become company men, learn the field.

I have a niece who lives in your city. She originally moved there for 'the art scene'. She is an artist-paintings-portraits-, and a good one at that. 'Daddy' paid for 4 years at U of T for her Art Degree. She has also since been working at a 'Toys R Us' store for 5 years. She finally realized 'this job sucks' and is now stdying for the BUSINESS DEGREE that 'Daddy' wanted her to get in the first place. Difference now is that 'she is paying for it'!

If your Science Degree isn't getting you anywhere, and your courier job sucks, then more training/education focusing on another line of work would be the way to go.

[Yogi]

andyt andyt:

Yogi Yogi:

You have finally made a statement on this subject that I can agree with! About the only way this is going to happen, is thru education-upgrades of the same working poor. And the programs and grants ARE already in place for people to take advantage of. It's a very tough 'row to hoe', but it can be done. One only need find the 'will within'.

Well I don't agree with you. What education is required to serve coffee at Timmies or all the other low skill service jobs out there that need doing? You educate even more people than we already have, and they'll either be over educated or compete for jobs with higher requirements and drive down wages there (that's already happening with immigrants, they have reduced professional wages to some degree). Meanwhile,either all those service jobs don't get done, or we import immigrants to do those service jobs at low wages are we're right back where we started - a group of working poor. Nope, any full time job should pay a living wage. Or at least be at the low income cutoff, which for Vancouver for a single person is $11.11/hr.

'Serving coffee at timmies' should only be looked at as a 'stop-gap' job. Nothing more! But you are advocating that people should be able to make a career of such and we should be responsible to make sure that they get paid a comfortable living wage. To hell with that idea! People have a responsibility towards themselves. They can put in the extra effort in upgrading so that they can obtain better paying employment.