[Choban]

$1:

Too many of the support our troops crowd seem to forget you can support the soldiers without supporting what they are doing. I respect the soldiers who risk their life for their country, or just serve to make it a better place. I supported Astan when it first went down - to hunt out Bin Laden. But it's turned into a cluster fuck, and I don't think killing more of them and having more of us get killed will fix it. Not without figuring out Pstan, and good luck with that.

But there are lots of people, military and non-military, who take any criticism of the the war as not supporting the troops. A good way to shut down argument - like yelling racist. Same with the idea that we can't leave because then the troops will have died in vain. Since military victory seems so unlikely, it just means that more will die in vain.

Good post Andy, I agree with you. I'm all for supporting the troops fighting this war, I know some of them personally. I just don't see what debating Don Cherry would accomplish, feel free to protest the war but all Cherry does is tribute to kids that lost their lives because Canada asked them to go fight.

[andyt]

I know nothing about Don Cherry except that he's an ahole because he puts down bike riders. I don't watch hockey. Good for him for giving tribute to people who lost their lives - more people should do that. But many people also misuse that sort of sentiment - patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel and all - and Cherry may be one of those. But I don't know.

[Gunnair]

Guy_Fawkes Guy_Fawkes:

Gunnair Gunnair:

I think it suggests if you don't support your soldiers stand in front of them and get shot, which I always thought was an poor message to send out to the taxpayers who pay for us but don't like where the government has sent us.

No matter how you cut it, I think its a dumb statement. I just cant understand why you(not you Gunnair, but the sticker people)would want to promote that kind of mentality.

Not trying to be a dick, but I think it started out as an American sticker. I could be wrong though. Seeing the propaganda you can buy in their PX's, it wouldn't surprise me.

[jeff744]

Gunnair Gunnair:

I think it suggests if you don't support your soldiers stand in front of them and get shot, which I always thought was an poor message to send out to the taxpayers who pay for us but don't like where the government has sent us.

I read it as saying if you will not support our troops and a cause many choose to fight for the least you can do is take the bullet so they can continue doing their job.

[andyt]

jeff744 jeff744:

Gunnair Gunnair:

I think it suggests if you don't support your soldiers stand in front of them and get shot, which I always thought was an poor message to send out to the taxpayers who pay for us but don't like where the government has sent us.

I read it as saying if you will not support our troops and a cause many choose to fight for the least you can do is take the bullet so they can continue doing their job.

So if I don't support Astan I need to take a bullet? Why do I have to agree with their choice or die?

[Choban]

Guy_Fawkes Guy_Fawkes:

Choban Choban:

$1:

I dont know, from what I see the sticker says 'if you dont stand behind them get in their way'

Different interpretation, like I said I always took it as. Our troops are fighting a war, they are getting shot at because their country asked them to, Walk a mile in their shoes.... put yourself in their position... ect

Again I think its a stupid argument:

Civ 1 -"War is horrible we shouldnt be in Afghanistan! Our soldiers are willfully killing people!"

Civ 2 -"Oh ya! You try going over there, walk a mile in their shoes!"

Civ 1-"Uhhh... how about no? What kind of debate point is that?"

Good point. I have the ribbon bumper sticker myself, adn a canadian flag that says we support our troops, both bought at the Military Family Reasource Center

[Gunnair]

jeff744 jeff744:

Gunnair Gunnair:

I think it suggests if you don't support your soldiers stand in front of them and get shot, which I always thought was an poor message to send out to the taxpayers who pay for us but don't like where the government has sent us.

I read it as saying if you will not support our troops and a cause many choose to fight for the least you can do is take the bullet so they can continue doing their job.

Yeah that pretty much sums it up. As a taxpayer paid member of Canada's professional military, I think that's a fucking retarded sentiment.

One does not have to support the government use of troops, but I do think one should still support the troops deployed by the government to do its bidding.

That bumper sticker suggests support both or at the very least, die.

Fuck that.

[Gunnair]

Choban Choban:

Guy_Fawkes Guy_Fawkes:

Choban Choban:

Different interpretation, like I said I always took it as. Our troops are fighting a war, they are getting shot at because their country asked them to, Walk a mile in their shoes.... put yourself in their position... ect

Again I think its a stupid argument:

Civ 1 -"War is horrible we shouldnt be in Afghanistan! Our soldiers are willfully killing people!"

Civ 2 -"Oh ya! You try going over there, walk a mile in their shoes!"

Civ 1-"Uhhh... how about no? What kind of debate point is that?"

Good point. I have the ribbon bumper sticker myself, adn a canadian flag that says we support our troops, both bought at the Military Family Reasource Center

As do I.

[EyeBrock]

andyt andyt:

Choban Choban:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

I don't think Don Cherry is promoting the war by sticking up pictures of fallen soldiers.

I agree, too many of the anti war crowd seem to forget that you can support the troops without supporting the war, I for one think Cherry's tributes are moving and heartfelt and thank him for them

Too many of the support our troops crowd seem to forget you can support the soldiers without supporting what they are doing. I respect the soldiers who risk their life for their country, or just serve to make it a better place. I supported Astan when it first went down - to hunt out Bin Laden. But it's turned into a cluster fuck, and I don't think killing more of them and having more of us get killed will fix it. Not without figuring out Pstan, and good luck with that.

But there are lots of people, military and non-military, who take any criticism of the the war as not supporting the troops. A good way to shut down argument - like yelling racist. Same with the idea that we can't leave because then the troops will have died in vain. Since military victory seems so unlikely, it just means that more will die in vain.

I think being critical of the war is our right.

I have to admit that I have been less than keen on our involvement in the Afghan theatre. I am a student of history.

If you look at my posting record, I was very vocal on this a couple of years ago but I decided to be less noisy on it as my issues on it were not helping the situation. That aside I have a 'support our troops' licence plate cover.

I'm also up for founded criticism of the police by the way.

[andyt]

I wasn't thinking of you when I wrote that, Brock.

As for criticizing the police. I feel the same way about them as I do the soldiers. I really appreciate the job you guys do. It's tough, often thankless and we'd be fucked without people willing to do it. I think most cops are cops because they want to contribute. Unfortunately some of you are cowboys and bullies, however. And I think the police system isn't very good at weeding them out, and is way too protective of them. That's my complaint about cops, and I think it's pretty well founded. Vancouver under Jim Chu has made great strides in this area compared to that numbnuts Jamie Graham (It hurts me to dis a fellow bikie, believe me). For some of the street crowd it will never be enough, but I've got to give Chu props. It's a fine line to walk. Cops are subject to all sorts of bullshit allegations, and we don't want good cops being tarred by those.

And still, even under his watch, that cop who pushed down the woman with MS was still on the same beat (admittedly there was an internal investigation going on) until months later the video hit the public, and then he was quickly removed. It shows that still at times it's public perception that counts, not what the cop actually did.

The real problem seems to be with the RCMP tho, and even they seem ready to admit as much.

[Zipperfish]

Guy_Fawkes Guy_Fawkes:

I dont think most hippies care about that, they just want that warm fuzzy they get when they 'stick it to the man'

I'm no hippie, but I do love "sticking it to the man." I thought everyone did. 'Cept The Man of course.

I'm painfully aware that in a few years, my son will be a teenager and I'll be The Man. Hopefully my son doesn't like sticking it to The Man as much as I did, but early signs are not encouraging.

[EyeBrock]

andyt andyt:

I wasn't thinking of you when I wrote that, Brock.

As for criticizing the police. I feel the same way about them as I do the soldiers. I really appreciate the job you guys do. It's tough, often thankless and we'd be fucked without people willing to do it. I think most cops are cops because they want to contribute. Unfortunately some of you are cowboys and bullies, however. And I think the police system isn't very good at weeding them out, and is way too protective of them. That's my complaint about cops, and I think it's pretty well founded. Vancouver under Jim Chu has made great strides in this area compared to that numbnuts Jamie Graham (It hurts me to dis a fellow bikie, believe me). For some of the street crowd it will never be enough, but I've got to give Chu props. It's a fine line to walk. Cops are subject to all sorts of bullshit allegations, and we don't want good cops being tarred by those.

And still, even under his watch, that cop who pushed down the woman with MS was still on the same beat (admittedly there was an internal investigation going on) until months later the video hit the public, and then he was quickly removed. It shows that still at times it's public perception that counts, not what the cop actually did.

The real problem seems to be with the RCMP tho, and even they seem ready to admit as much.

I didn't think you were aiming it at me andy, I just thought it was a good segway into getting the point out there that many of us ex-military types have our own personal views on the war and many of us disagree.

The only thing with me is I'm aware that my personal views as an ex-mil type may hurt the morale of our guys serving over there.

I'll wait until our guys have left before I'm vocal on the mission as it would be bad form for me personally.

On the cops, nothing is perfect but I'm for getting rid of bad apples quickly. 99% of the cops are.

[Guy_Fawkes]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Guy_Fawkes Guy_Fawkes:

Gunnair Gunnair:

I think it suggests if you don't support your soldiers stand in front of them and get shot, which I always thought was an poor message to send out to the taxpayers who pay for us but don't like where the government has sent us.

No matter how you cut it, I think its a dumb statement. I just cant understand why you(not you Gunnair, but the sticker people)would want to promote that kind of mentality.

Not trying to be a dick, but I think it started out as an American sticker. I could be wrong though. Seeing the propaganda you can buy in their PX's, it wouldn't surprise me.

Oh wouldnt doubt it.

[EyeBrock]

I used to have a good giggle at some of the belligerent stuff you would see at the PX's.

Peace through superior fire power and all that!

[raydan]

Would you believe that when Québec had it's first referendum, no military could get on base at Valcartier with a "Oui" sticker on his car?

I know it has nothing to do with this subject, just a souvenir that popped in my head.