[BartSimpson]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

I also get a kick out of how the right-wing--who thoroughly despise the UN--are suddenly the UN's biggest fans when it comes to their first and perhaps most flawed decision--to unilaterally create Israel.

1. Israel would exist without the UN mandate. The UN mandate simply acknowledged something that was an effective reality.

2. The UN vote that recognized Israel was a result of a vote of 33 nations, not one, so the action was hardly 'unilateral'.

3. The subsequent UN majority resolutions condemning Israel are not unilateral, either.

[ShepherdsDog]

The UN is a different (and dysfunctional...see: useless as tits on a boar) organization today than it was at the time of its founding. Nowadays its a reward post for friends and family of Third World dictators and troglodytes.

And as Bart pointed out, it would have existed without the UN. It's amyth that Israel came about as their creation. They declared their existence and the UN chose to acknowledge it. It's similar to the myth that the UN booted Taiwan(ROC) out of the UN in 1972. The ROC delegates walked out before a vote was taken. It left in protest over the UN's recognition of the PRC and has been trying to get back in ever since.

[IlovUSandCanada]

God Israel really sticks in my craw. Sometimes I FEEL (Notice, I am only expressing a personal opinion not a fact) that the only reason they haven't been utterly crushed is because they have the U.S as a bodyguard and they possess a mountain of nuclear weapons they will not stop lying about.

[GreenTiger]

Yes, Israel does have brass balls in what it doing they may have pushed the limit.

As far as the UN goes it is a useless organization that serves as a platform for loud mouth numbskulls representing largely idiotic regimes such as Libya, North Korea, Zimbabwe and other such useless countries, and it has the moral authority of a whorehouse.

[ShepherdsDog]

The US didn't assist(defend is the wrong choice of words) Israel until much later in its history. I've pointed it out before that it was initially Russia and its allies that supplied Israel with its limited armaments, as they thought of the Israelis as fellow socialists.

Most of those who founded the modern state of Israel were extremely secular, not religious, as some of the uninformed would have people think. The UK(Ironically it was Disraeli and the British who proposed rebuilding a Jewish state in the area), supplied and trained(the UK supplied most of the officer corps)the Arab Legion in the beginning. The United States was prepared to sell write off Israel to the Russians during the Suez Crisis of 1956.

The United States only extended military aid to Israel to counter the Russians courting Nasser and other Arab leaders. It wasn't out of some love of the Jews, although there was a fair bit of lobbying by Jewish Americans. Israel learned the hard way that it couldn't depend on anyone for its survival, except itself, and that's why it developed it own nuclear program. Fairweather friends are only fie until the going gets tough. As for modern weaponry, Israel buys some from the US as does Taiwan, but unlike many other states, it doesn't require outside assistance/intervention. Israel produces its own armament and warriors that are some of the world's best. Israel is no ones bitch and the idea that the Jews can be pushed into the sea is laughable at best. They'd likely say, let it stick in your craw and choke on it.

[Zipperfish]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

I also get a kick out of how the right-wing--who thoroughly despise the UN--are suddenly the UN's biggest fans when it comes to their first and perhaps most flawed decision--to unilaterally create Israel.

1. Israel would exist without the UN mandate. The UN mandate simply acknowledged something that was an effective reality.

2. The UN vote that recognized Israel was a result of a vote of 33 nations, not one, so the action was hardly 'unilateral'.

3. The subsequent UN majority resolutions condemning Israel are not unilateral, either.

Still I don't think I'd appreciate it if the UN had have declared, say. Canada as the new home of the Jews. It would have been nice if they had have considered the people already living there.

[BartSimpson]

IlovUSandCanada IlovUSandCanada:

God Israel really sticks in my craw. Sometimes I FEEL (Notice, I am only expressing a personal opinion not a fact) that the only reason they haven't been utterly crushed is because they have the U.S as a bodyguard and they possess a mountain of nuclear weapons they will not stop lying about.

Most of the Israeli folks I know don't see the US so much as a bodyguard, but as holding their leash and more than a few reset the US for not letting Israel crush Syria, Jordan, and Egypt when those three countries dogpiled Israel in 1973.

Israel does not "lie" about their nuclear weapons any more than the US Navy does about its nuclear weapons. The US Navy's official policy is to neither confirm or deny that a US ship might be nuclear armed and Israel's effective policy is the same.

Allowing one's enemies to overestimate and underestimate your capabilities is one of the key steps to victory. The Israelis need every break they can get and they're taking this one, no matter how small it may be.

[Zipperfish]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

The UN is a different (and dysfunctional...see: useless as tits on a boar) organization today than it was at the time of its founding. Nowadays its a reward post for friends and family of Third World dictators and troglodytes.

This is more like the standard line of the right. I just find it peculiar because the reason that the right despises the UN is because they see it as a threat to sovereignty. And they are right--as evidenced by the fact that the first act of teh UN was to simply give away land to the Jews that didn't belong to the UN.

$1:

And as Bart pointed out, it would have existed without the UN. It's amyth that Israel came about as their creation. They declared their existence and the UN chose to acknowledge it. It's similar to the myth that the UN booted Taiwan(ROC) out of the UN in 1972. The ROC delegates walked out before a vote was taken. It left in protest over the UN's recognition of the PRC and has been trying to get back in ever since.

Yes, the UN "Chose to acknowledge it"--despite the fact there were other people already living there. It's water under the bridge now, we all have to live with it, but I do get a kick out of the right-wingers tying themselves in knots trying to despise and support the UN at the same time.

[BartSimpson]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Still I don't think I'd appreciate it if the UN had have declared, say. Canada as the new home of the Jews. It would have been nice if they had have considered the people already living there.

Harold Ickes, Interior Secretary under FDR, proposed giving Alaska to the Jews as a homeland in much the same way that Utah is a homeland to the Mormons. Essentially, it would've been a Jewish-majority territory. Had the anti-Semitic bigot FDR and his equally racist cohorts been a tad more open minded then the Jews would have migrated to Alaska from Europe free of immigration restrictions. This means the Jews would have been free to leave Germany and the Final Solution...the Holocaust...would never have happened.

But Canada would have had about 15 million militant Jews on her western border.

That would have been interesting, to say the least.

[ShepherdsDog]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

The UN is a different (and dysfunctional...see: useless as tits on a boar) organization today than it was at the time of its founding. Nowadays its a reward post for friends and family of Third World dictators and troglodytes.

This is more like the standard line of the right. I just find it peculiar because the reason that the right despises the UN is because they see it as a threat to sovereignty. And they are right--as evidenced by the fact that the first act of teh UN was to simply give away land to the Jews that didn't belong to the UN.

$1:

And as Bart pointed out, it would have existed without the UN. It's amyth that Israel came about as their creation. They declared their existence and the UN chose to acknowledge it. It's similar to the myth that the UN booted Taiwan(ROC) out of the UN in 1972. The ROC delegates walked out before a vote was taken. It left in protest over the UN's recognition of the PRC and has been trying to get back in ever since.

Yes, the UN "Chose to acknowledge it"--despite the fact there were other people already living there. It's water under the bridge now, we all have to live with it, but I do get a kick out of the right-wingers tying themselves in knots trying to despise and support the UN at the same time.

How is it support for the UN? I said the UN had no choice but to go along with it. Besides, what the UN was at its inception, and the League of Nations Redux it has become today are two different things. Maybe you should stop lacing your weed with synthetic pharmaceuticals because you seem to be seeing/reading things that aren't there. Conversely, it's funny to see others run down people for not supporting the UN in every action, and then bitch when they do. The UN also chose to see Polands borders redrawn at the expense of Germany when the Russians invaded it as well(and were just as brutal to the Poles) and refused to relinquish eastern Poland. You're picking from the same cherry tree, creating your own gordian knot.

[IlovUSandCanada]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

The US didn't assist(defend is the wrong choice of words) Israel until much later in its history. I've pointed it out before that it was initially Russia and its allies that supplied Israel with its limited armaments, as they thought of the Israelis as fellow socialists.

Most of those who founded the modern state of Israel were extremely secular, not religious, as some of the uninformed would have people think. The UK(Ironically it was Disraeli and the British who proposed rebuilding a Jewish state in the area), supplied and trained(the UK supplied most of the officer corps)the Arab Legion in the beginning. The United States was prepared to sell write off Israel to the Russians during the Suez Crisis of 1956.

The United States only extended military aid to Israel to counter the Russians courting Nasser and other Arab leaders. It wasn't out of some love of the Jews, although there was a fair bit of lobbying by Jewish Americans. Israel learned the hard way that it couldn't depend on anyone for its survival, except itself, and that's why it developed it own nuclear program. Fairweather friends are only fie until the going gets tough. As for modern weaponry, Israel buys some from the US as does Taiwan, but unlike many other states, it doesn't require outside assistance/intervention. Israel produces its own armament and warriors that are some of the world's best. Israel is no ones bitch and the idea that the Jews can be pushed into the sea is laughable at best. They'd likely say, let it stick in your craw and choke on it.

Well, true I doubt they could be pushed into the sea, but it would be a nice experiment to see what they could do against an enormous Arab coalition wishing to exterminate them and the Palestinians inside Israel welcoming the invaders in with open arms.

And what you are saying about Israel's history is nice, if you are trying to prove how well-read you are, but I am speaking of current events. The U.S sends Israel massive amounts of monetary and foreign aid and for what? It seems the most unequal alliance in history. We endanger our relations with the middle-east to ASSIST a state which does nearly nothing of direct benefit to us!

[Zipperfish]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

How is it support for the UN? I said the UN had no choice but to go along with it.

Sure they did. They made a choice. It opted to support the partition of Palestine. These are facts that, to my knowledge, are not in dispute, so perhaps it's you hitting the opium pipe there, buddy.

$1:

Besides, what the UN was at its inception, and the League of Nations Redux it has become today are two different things. Maybe you should stop lacing your weed with synthetic pharmaceuticals because you seem to be seeing/reading things that aren't there. Conversely, it's funny to see others run down people for not supporting the UN in every action, and then bitch when they do. The UN also chose to see Polands borders redrawn at the expense of Germany when the Russians invaded it as well(and were just as brutal to the Poles) and refused to relinquish eastern Poland. You're picking from the same cherry tree, creating your own gordian knot.

I'm pretty consistent--everything the UN tocuches turns to crap. Including their inaugural decision to partition Palestine.

[martin14]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

I'm pretty consistent--everything the UN tocuches turns to crap. Including their inaugural decision to partition Palestine.

Yup, just consistently wrong.

The UN didnt create Israel.

[commanderkai]

IlovUSandCanada IlovUSandCanada:

Well, true I doubt they could be pushed into the sea, but it would be a nice experiment to see what they could do against an enormous Arab coalition wishing to exterminate them and the Palestinians inside Israel welcoming the invaders in with open arms.

Please see the Independence War, The Six Day War, and the Yom Kippur War as examples. Also, before you talk about the Americans, the Soviets were (in the Six Day and Yom Kippur wars) supplying the Arabs with just as much technology and weaponry.

[IlovUSandCanada]

commanderkai commanderkai:

Please see the Independence War, The Six Day War, and the Yom Kippur War as examples. Also, before you talk about the Americans, the Soviets were (in the Six Day and Yom Kippur wars) supplying the Arabs with just as much technology and weaponry.

I think I have displayed a consistent preference for the truth over any patriotic feelings, so if I paint my country in an overly-favourable light it is only due to mis-information not a deliberate over-looking of facts.

True, the Israelies have done brilliantly, but may I respond in turn by asking you to please see Napoleon, Henry V of England, the British Empire, the Russian Empire, the Spanish Empire, the French Empire, the Chinese Empire etc ... Every winning streak runs dry.