[DerbyX]

I wonder just how many of English phrases are based on stuff like this?

[commanderkai]

DerbyX DerbyX:

So you didn't rush back to Canada for medical care? So? I've never needed to go to the US. My father when he had his heart attack received prompt (and free) care and was diagnosed, treated, and had 2 stents implanted in 2 days. He received excellent care and he didn't have to sell his house.

...You were living in Canada and got Canadian health care. That makes sense. I was living in the US and received US health care. That retired couple was living in Mexico...and received Mexican health care?

Proximity comes into play here. Most people will not travel for health care if they don't have to. 80,000 retirees in Mexico (which can be a reasonable retirement destination, due to it's beauty and who knows how many other reasons outside of health care) will probably get most of their health care in Mexico.

$1:

Only the ones that pay for it. On the flip side Americans traveling to Canada, Australia, and the UK are able to get free health care under their system. Hell I received emergency care in both countries and was not charged one dime. Both countries treated me promptly and professionally and that was that.

Think if I needed ER treatment in the US I would get it scott free?

Actually, if you can't afford it, yes, yes you would. No hospital can turn away ER treatment due to financial reasons. I believe you can get your money back through whatever bureaucracy in Canada too when you get back home.

But yes, I know what you're saying. If you, as a Canadian, wanted medical care in the United States, and you didn't get travel insurance, you'd have to pay out of pocket.

$1:

You are LOOKING for reasons to bash the report. They quoted a very non-mexican name in the article and I doubt very much illegal migrants are heading south knowing they will have to sneak back in.

They had an interview from retired Americans. The article was the one who stated "1 million people from California go south for medical care". The distinction isn't made between Mexican citizens who are legal or temporary residents of the United States, and American citizens.

The reason I ask this, is that in the USA today article, it talks about how newer treatments, pre-existing conditions, etc, aren't covered for the first two years. Unless Americans already have properties in Mexico (and thus are paying taxes, thus they are entitled), their treatment in Mexico would not be free.

Anyway, we're going to argue this all day. I'm sure, and I'll even admit I was wrong on this, there are some Americans who go south/north for medical care. Let's just say one million. However, I don't see it as a sign of how their systems are better, but how the US medicare/medicaid system is flawed.

$1:

Moore is not the defining authority. Funny that you are bending over backwards to do what you think others are doing. Once again, Canadians use statistics to defend our system and when US senators attack it we are justified in pointing out life statistics as well as pointing out how many in the US aren't insured.

Hell, Americans wanting to emulate ours doit for us.

Michael Moore is an example of a greater trend. Canadians like praising their health care over that of the United States. You might think it's the Americans who attack first, and then we attack back, but I don't. Chicken or the egg argument. We're not going to agree, and that's that.

[andyt]

GreenTiger GreenTiger:

Which is why I'm pursiung immigration to Canada. Where the governemnt is a hell of a lot more tranparent and the government known what it is trying to do.

Well make sure you check us out carefully - you may be deluding yourself about our government. Especially with the reformacons in power - I bet you Stevo fantasizes about Sarah Palin while he's slipping the salami to Lauren. If we didn't have Quebec, we might have slipped into the same rightwingnut madness you guys have down there.

It sure looks like the US is going to hell in a handbasket. But we're not going to be able to avoid the shit either, when it hits the fan.

[commanderkai]

andyt andyt:

Yep, right in the article I first put up.

Here's an explanation: as I posted earlier, people in the US are letting their health care coverage lapse because of the recession. As that happens, insurers are increasing premiums to make up the shortfall, (presumably the healthiest people are the ones going without coverage) so that even more people are forced to give up their coverage.

Fine so far, but the stretch is coming.

$1:

This could be forcing greater numbers to get emergency care where it is more affordable, including Mexico. Certainly a lot of people have always gone to Mexico for dental care and plastic surgery, I wouldn't doubt that there are lots of clinics set up right by the border to offer general care as well. Too bad US citizens are not allowed to travel to Cuba. They could get good care for a very reasonable price. In fact for the fist few, I'm sure Fidel would give it to them free for the publicity value,

And here's the stretch. You didn't really explain the massive increase. I'll even grant a double, or triple the amount from 2007 from your explanation. So yes, I'm dismissing a 5.25 million person increase for medical care. We're talking about an increase in 5.25 million Americans going abroad for medical care. In three years. Even in a bad economy, such an increase is excessive. It COULD happen, sure, but like with all predictions, people choose the number to bolster their argument. A journalist can do the same exact thing.

Plastic surgery is something else, many people go to plastic surgery clinics abroad for the newer, yet not approved surgery. However, that's not health care. People who get plastic surgery, I'd argue, have the disposable income to get health care in the United States as well.

[Lemmy]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Only if you think its origins were racist.

Yes, I think its origins were racist. I stand corrected.

[andyt]

OK, you got me curious:

http://www.deloitte.com/view/en_US/us/Insights/centers/center-for-health-solutions/article/55d9f278c9184210VgnVCM200000bb42f00aRCRD.htm

I dunno, they don't sound like a bunch of politically motivated radicals to me.

[DerbyX]

commanderkai commanderkai:

...You were living in Canada and got Canadian health care. That makes sense. I was living in the US and received US health care. That retired couple was living in Mexico...and received Mexican health care?

You need to read the article fully.

$1:

"We knew that we couldn't retire without Medicare," Jemmy Miller said. "We're pretty much in Mexico now because we can't afford health care in the States."

The couple learned about IMSS from Mexico guidebooks and the Internet. They moved to the central city of Irapuato in 2006, got residency visas as foreign retirees, and then enrolled in IMSS.

People aren't simply receiving health care in their place of residence. They are relocating to Mexico in order to afford health care.

commanderkai commanderkai:

Proximity comes into play here. Most people will not travel for health care if they don't have to. 80,000 retirees in Mexico (which can be a reasonable retirement destination, due to it's beauty and who knows how many other reasons outside of health care) will probably get most of their health care in Mexico.

That is the point. The people traveling do have to because they cannot afford it where they live. Hell there are even states where its very hard to even get insured:

http://www.businessinsider.com/10-state ... arkansas-1

The fact that they are mostly states where its closer to Mexico then Canada lends good support to the numbers traveling south for affordable health care.

commanderkai commanderkai:

Actually, if you can't afford it, yes, yes you would. No hospital can turn away ER treatment due to financial reasons. I believe you can get your money back through whatever bureaucracy in Canada too when you get back home.

No, you would get treated then billed later and they would do whatever it takes to recoup their losses. Ever compare US health care billing departments to ours? I have.

commanderkai commanderkai:

But yes, I know what you're saying. If you, as a Canadian, wanted medical care in the United States, and you didn't get travel insurance, you'd have to pay out of pocket.

That's right. However in Australia I needed special tests (saline challenge) in order to get my divers certificate and they even gave it to me for free. When I asked them they said that they'd rather pay for this up front then the costs associated with not doing it.

You would likely not get that treatment in the US, at least not for free.

commanderkai commanderkai:

They had an interview from retired Americans. The article was the one who stated "1 million people from California go south for medical care". The distinction isn't made between Mexican citizens who are legal or temporary residents of the United States, and American citizens.

Well first off it should be pretty logical it isn't illegals. Second off you simply want to assume the bulk aren't Americans. Even if its 50% that is still 500000 Americans heading south from California alone.

commanderkai commanderkai:

Anyway, we're going to argue this all day. I'm sure, and I'll even admit I was wrong on this, there are some Americans who go south/north for medical care. Let's just say one million. However, I don't see it as a sign of how their systems are better, but how the US medicare/medicaid system is flawed.

Better is also subjective. Remember the sports care vs truck point? better depends on what you need it for. You talk about legitimate criticism of Obamacare yet claim that these points aren't good enough criticism against the US status quo?

That doesn't sound fair.

commanderkai commanderkai:

Michael Moore is an example of a greater trend. Canadians like praising their health care over that of the United States. You might think it's the Americans who attack first, and then we attack back, but I don't. Chicken or the egg argument. We're not going to agree, and that's that.

Of course Canadians praise our system. We have every right to. When Canadian MPs vilify the US system like ours is by US senators then you might have a point.

[DerbyX]

Lemmy Lemmy:

DerbyX DerbyX:

Only if you think its origins were racist.

Yes, I think its origins were racist. I stand corrected.

Damn right you are. What are you "insert national stereotype here"?

[Thanos]

tritium tritium:

Thanos Thanos:

Palin's family hopped borders to use a social welfare system they didn't pay into. By their own party's current standards, they're no different than filthy Mexicans.

...and you're a racist asswipe. WTF dude?

It's called sarcasm. Look it up in the dictionary, bitch.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

For those NOT in the know, US and Canadian medical systems have been entwined to a small degree. Maybe not entwined, but certainly work in close co-operation.
About 20 yrs ago, Windsor residents were bitching to Queen's Park about the need for a chronic heart care facility. For years WIndsor residents were told that if they needed that kind of care, London was available and if not, a quick medi-flight to Toronto and yer set. Wellll things didn't work out that way after a while. In one year, 4 people in Windsor died because they didn't have access to proper heart care, one of them was a 9-10 yr old boy.
The Detroit hospitals stepped up to the plate in this instance and struck a deal with OHIP and Windsor residents. If they needed emergency heart care and couldn't get it in London or Toronto, they could come to a Detroit hospital, WITH THEIR OHIP CARD and the hospital would bill OHIP for their services.
One phenomenon about American's coming here for health care was they came here for diagnoses because they believed that they could get a more accurate diagnosis in Canada. THEN they would go back to the US for the actual medical procedure, if one was necessary. I spoke to many a Minnesotan that did this, despite having the Mayo Clinic in their state.

[commanderkai]

andyt andyt:

OK, you got me curious:

http://www.deloitte.com/view/en_US/us/Insights/centers/center-for-health-solutions/article/55d9f278c9184210VgnVCM200000bb42f00aRCRD.htm

I dunno, they don't sound like a bunch of politically motivated radicals to me.

...

All I said that from a 2007 statistic of 750,000 medical tourists, to 6,000,000 tourists in three years was a huge stretch, and I thought an unbelievable one. What do I know...I was right. On the link you provided, their outbound medical tourism prediction for 2010 is about 900,000, not 6,000,000 like your article stated.

I didn't question the source per say, but rather the journalist's bias in the article. So basically, posting this, and actually reading their revised projections from the actual institute, I was right, the political bias of the JOURNALIST seeped into their article, and thus they probably took the outlaying number of 6,000,000 from the Institute's studies in 2007.

[commanderkai]

DerbyX DerbyX:

You need to read the article fully.

$1:

"We knew that we couldn't retire without Medicare," Jemmy Miller said. "We're pretty much in Mexico now because we can't afford health care in the States."

The couple learned about IMSS from Mexico guidebooks and the Internet. They moved to the central city of Irapuato in 2006, got residency visas as foreign retirees, and then enrolled in IMSS.

People aren't simply receiving health care in their place of residence. They are relocating to Mexico in order to afford health care.

They also retired early, and realized that health care would be expensive. Like I said, they moved to Mexico to retire, and yes, they, as in that couple, took health care costs to account for their choice of retirement, however, making their case a sweeping generalization for the 40-80 thousand Americans who are living in Mexico is a stretch.

They learned of IMSS, but IMSS states you need to be a living resident in Mexico for 2 years to get full coverage for the more modern care. They made a decision to relocate early, which is fine, as long as you want to spend your Golden Years in Mexico.

$1:

That is the point. The people traveling do have to because they cannot afford it where they live. Hell there are even states where its very hard to even get insured:

http://www.businessinsider.com/10-state ... arkansas-1

The fact that they are mostly states where its closer to Mexico then Canada lends good support to the numbers traveling south for affordable health care.

And yes, I will not deny, after reading the articles and the actual PDF about medical tourism, that SOME people will travel south to Mexico for health care. Though they might also move to different states as well. Either way, there IS Medicare and Medicaid for those who are poor. The problem is, it's been mismanaged by the United States government.

$1:

Well first off it should be pretty logical it isn't illegals. Second off you simply want to assume the bulk aren't Americans. Even if its 50% that is still 500000 Americans heading south from California alone.

I'm not factoring in illegals. I'm factoring in the HUGE population of Mexican legal residents and migrant workers in the United States. If the statistics from the Deloitte Institute are correct (I'll even say there are 1 million outgoing medical tourists), that would half to all of America's medical tourists are from California. Like I said, it's a stretch.

The numbers are questionable, and 1 out of every 30 or so Californians going to Mexico for medical care is also a stretch.

$1:

Better is also subjective. Remember the sports care vs truck point? better depends on what you need it for. You talk about legitimate criticism of Obamacare yet claim that these points aren't good enough criticism against the US status quo?

That doesn't sound fair.

They aren't, because true, bias free statistics are lacking on this.

[Newsbot]

Title: Sarah Palin says family sought health care in Canada
Category: Uncle Sam
Posted By: Hyack
Date: 2010-03-08 19:25:08
Canadian

[GreenTiger]

To Say that Sara Palin is full of BS is a self evident truth. Is a shame when her brother was treated for his burned foot that her family didn't have mantal Illness treated at the same time.

[DerbyX]

commanderkai commanderkai:

They also retired early, and realized that health care would be expensive. Like I said, they moved to Mexico to retire, and yes, they, as in that couple, took health care costs to account for their choice of retirement, however, making their case a sweeping generalization for the 40-80 thousand Americans who are living in Mexico is a stretch.

What does retiring early have to do with it? It isn't a sweeping generalization, its a factor in the debate and its one those opposing Obamacare don't want to consider. The fact is that health care is so expensive in the US that many people simply cannot afford it. Where ours makes people wait longer theirs simply has millions of people who must do without, ER treatment aside. Drug costs are often so expensive that people simply throw away prescriptions because they cannot afford them. I think that happens up here as well but to a lesser extent. In the UK everybody pays 5 quid per drug. Its a system I'd like to see adopted here.

commanderkai commanderkai:

They learned of IMSS, but IMSS states you need to be a living resident in Mexico for 2 years to get full coverage for the more modern care. They made a decision to relocate early, which is fine, as long as you want to spend your Golden Years in Mexico.

That seems to be the point. They realize that in the long run it we better for them to retire in a foreign country due to health care costs.

commanderkai commanderkai:

And yes, I will not deny, after reading the articles and the actual PDF about medical tourism, that SOME people will travel south to Mexico for health care. Though they might also move to different states as well. Either way, there IS Medicare and Medicaid for those who are poor. The problem is, it's been mismanaged by the United States government.

Mismanaged is a great adjective to describe private health insurers as well. Don't forget the stats regarding insured people being denied their claim and paying out of pocket or not getting the treatment not to mention that medicare and medicaid certainly don't provide like our system does so you are often back where you started.

commanderkai commanderkai:

I'm not factoring in illegals. I'm factoring in the HUGE population of Mexican legal residents and migrant workers in the United States. If the statistics from the Deloitte Institute are correct (I'll even say there are 1 million outgoing medical tourists), that would half to all of America's medical tourists are from California. Like I said, it's a stretch.

Are you factoring in the fact that when you consider how much of the US population actually lives close enough for Mexico to be a viable option then the numbers take on a different perspective.

No matter how you slice it, US health care is simply unaffordable for an unacceptable number of people especially when you consider how wealthy the country is.

commanderkai commanderkai:

The numbers are questionable, and 1 out of every 30 or so Californians going to Mexico for medical care is also a stretch.

What isn't a stretch is the realization that the number would be much larger if more of the population lived close enough to travel without the cost making the trip redundant.

commanderkai commanderkai:

They aren't, because true, bias free statistics are lacking on this.

Not quite. There are lots and lots of unbiased stats.

nationmaster.com has reams of health care stats (as well as a load more). The right simply doesn't want to admit that health care is so unaffordable to so many Americans. At least we can admit the failings of Canada's system and ultimately are better poised to make it better because we have identified the problems.