[gonavy47]

Lemmy Lemmy:

gonavy47 gonavy47:

Not if you're held hostage by a lengthy strike, then all correct managerial practices go out the door, as does most of your customer base, never to return.

Good reason to not have a strike then, isn't it? Unions sure don't want them either. They're not money-making ventures for unionized workers either.

Strikes have become why unions now exist. You've obviously never been in a union, yet apparently, you have all the answers. All from books.

[Lemmy]

gonavy47 gonavy47:

Strikes have become why unions now exist. You've obviously never been in a union, yet apparently, you have all the answers. All from books.

Strikes are not why unions exist. COLOSSAL FAIL!!! Sure I've been in unions. Studying there behaviour is my life's work. What I know about unions is in books, books I've written!

[gonavy47]

Lemmy Lemmy:

gonavy47 gonavy47:

Strikes have become why unions now exist. You've obviously never been in a union, yet apparently, you have all the answers. All from books.

Strikes are not why unions exist. COLOSSAL FAIL!!! Sure I've been in unions. Studying there behaviour is my life's work. What I know about unions is in books, books I've written!

You win. My life experience apparently doesn't count. Sorry.

[Lemmy]

gonavy47 gonavy47:

You win. My life experience apparently doesn't count. Sorry.

Your life experiences certainly do count. As someone who researches unions for a living, I'm very curious to hear your experiences and opinions. But when you attempt to belittle my understanding of unions with comments like "you obviously have never been in a union", I'm likely just going to . I'd like to know why you think unions' main purpose is to strike. That runs contrary to all of my research.

[gonavy47]

When you do your research, make sure you talk to the man on the line, and not just the union brass. What they say they are all about and what they do, are two different things. Their only and most important weapon is the strike. The intent of the pickets on the line is to disrupt and damage. Have you ever attended a picket line? Have you ever suffered flat tires, spray-painting, or been physically assaulted, including being pushed under a moving truck? Not to mention the verbal abuse and name-calling. Probably not. The union brass says it's concerned for the workers' rights and to some extent that is true, but when a strike situation occurs, then their true colours emerge. Most union workers have never seen anyone in their union above shop steward. But when a strike happens, they come out of the woodwork, agitate the hell out of the situation, and when the result is violence, they disappear. I don't have respect for unions, and I never will, after what I have witnessed from both sides of the line.

[ASLplease]

I guess I'm gonna have to keep repeating myself because everyone is avoiding the issue....

Unions, just like ISO quality management systems, seek to replace arbitrary decisions and discriminatory practises with procedure and policy.

So why is it that the 'anti-union' types tend to support quality initiatives in all forms of management EXCEPT Human Resource management?

[gonavy47]

ASLplease ASLplease:

I guess I'm gonna have to keep repeating myself because everyone is avoiding the issue....

Unions, just like ISO quality management systems, seek to replace arbitrary decisions and discriminatory practises with procedure and policy.

So why is it that the 'anti-union' types tend to support quality initiatives in all forms of management EXCEPT Human Resource management?

Who said they supported ISO systems? I didn't!

[ASLplease]

You don't?!?!?!?!??!

Jesse, git da roap!!!

[Lemmy]

gonavy47 gonavy47:

When you do your research, make sure you talk to the man on the line, and not just the union brass. What they say they are all about and what they do, are two different things. Their only and most important weapon is the strike. The intent of the pickets on the line is to disrupt and damage. Have you ever attended a picket line? Have you ever suffered flat tires, spray-painting, or been physically assaulted, including being pushed under a moving truck? Not to mention the verbal abuse and name-calling. Probably not. The union brass says it's concerned for the workers' rights and to some extent that is true, but when a strike situation occurs, then their true colours emerge. Most union workers have never seen anyone in their union above shop steward. But when a strike happens, they come out of the woodwork, agitate the hell out of the situation, and when the result is violence, they disappear. I don't have respect for unions, and I never will, after what I have witnessed from both sides of the line.

Why would you presume that I don't talk to people on the line? Why would you say "probably not"? I know what happens in some shops, but have you considered that your experience is not the norm? I've been on a picket line and I've been in closed shops during difficult negotiations (I had a piece of steel whipped at me at Westinghouse in Hamilton). If you think this sort of behaviour is unique to union shops, you're dead wrong. Bad feelings come from the adversarial nature of worker and manager, whether there's a union or not. Disputes can turn just as nasty in non-unionized shops.

But what I want to know is what you dodged: you said "Unions are all about striking", or something to that effect. You don't honestly believe that, do you?

Finally, I don't much care whether you respect unions or not. They exist and we must live with them, for good and bad. It sounds to me like you're exaggerating the bad and ignoring the good.

[Zipperfish]

If you're making a decent wage today, thank a union.

[Thanos]

ISO sucks dog balls. In businesses governed by already existing codes, ISO's pointless and just adds unnecessary levels of extra paperwork. It's silly and redundant Euro-trash garbage.