[Gunnair]

Bouboumaster Bouboumaster:

saturn_656 saturn_656:

Bouboumaster Bouboumaster:

If I were Prime Minister, soldiers would only do peacekeeping and humanitaries mission.

I think you are getting the Canadian Forces mixed up with the Peace Corps.

Seriously, why on Earth we should have an army anyway?

Are you American?

[Guy_Fawkes]

Bouboumaster Bouboumaster:

If it weren't of the americans who went in Irak just because, we maybe could have done it. But now, I think we gave enough of our soldiers.

If I were Prime Minister, soldiers would only do peacekeeping and humanitaries mission.

You know, I usually don’t harp on someone’s spelling and grammar. God knows I'm horrible at it, but it shows how much you know about the subject when you can’t even spell Iraq properly.

[Gunnair]

Thanos Thanos:

Going by history's verdict this goal should now unfortunately be seen as an existential impossibility. If the British and Soviets couldn't do it, even by using all the brutality they were capable of, then what makes us thinks that we're going to do it with drone attacks and photo-ops. Imposing our systems on an Muslim world that doesn't seem to want anything to do with them is not, in the end run, logical. By comparison, restoring democracy and Western values to the off-the-rails fascist states of Japan And Germany in World War 2 will be seen as infinitely easier in hindsight. I personally have no hope anymore that what we're doing in Afghanistan will have any sort of lasting value.

Well, I agree, and felt that way when they first announced they were going into Afghanistan. The British were thumped on in the 1840s and had at them again in the 1880s and 1920s with nothing gained. The Soviets the same. So there we have it. It's looking like a lost cause.

That being said, NATO committed itself to regime change and went in to take out Osama and remove the Taliban. How can NATO hold its head up with any credibility if they call time of death when things get tough and walk away leaving the country in a mess?

If that's the case, lets do what the NDP wants and become a country of peacekeepers and take the easy missions, or better yet, let's hide like our European partners that recoil at the thought of blood.

[raydan]

Guy_Fawkes Guy_Fawkes:

Bouboumaster Bouboumaster:

If it weren't of the americans who went in Irak just because, we maybe could have done it. But now, I think we gave enough of our soldiers.

If I were Prime Minister, soldiers would only do peacekeeping and humanitaries mission.

You know, I usually don’t harp on someone’s spelling and grammar. God knows I'm horrible at it, but it shows how much you know about the subject when you can’t even spell Iraq properly.

Irak is how it's spelled in French.

Bouboumaster makes a few spelling and grammar mistakes but keep in mind that I think French is his mother tongue.

That said, I don't agree with him on this subject either, Guy_Fawkes.
So please, don't shoot the messenger.

[Bouboumaster]

raydan raydan:

Guy_Fawkes Guy_Fawkes:

Bouboumaster Bouboumaster:

If it weren't of the americans who went in Irak just because, we maybe could have done it. But now, I think we gave enough of our soldiers.

If I were Prime Minister, soldiers would only do peacekeeping and humanitaries mission.

You know, I usually don’t harp on someone’s spelling and grammar. God knows I'm horrible at it, but it shows how much you know about the subject when you can’t even spell Iraq properly.

Irak is how it's spelled in French.

Bouboumaster makes a few spelling and grammar mistakes but keep in mind that I think French is his mother tongue.

That said, I don't agree with him on this subject either, Guy_Fawkes.
So please, don't shoot the messenger.

Yep, I'm born in Quebec, so, as you may probably think, my mother tongue is french.

If you understand french, mr Guy_Fawkes, I can continue in french, in which I could put my ideas clearer. If not, I will continue in english, even if I make a lot of mistakes. But eh, you can't say I don't make any efforts.

Oh, and Raydan, you're right: Iraq is Irak in french, I just forgot to replace "k" by "q" ^^ That's the kind of mistakes I always make...

That, and the damn verb tense... lol

[Akhenaten]

I don't agree with the "The british couldn't do it....the Soviets couldn't do it" arguments.

First off the British: please, they were on horseback. Transport consisted of sailboats. And they weren't all that interested in the place anyways.

Secondly, the Soviets: well the Soviets had to contend with a Mujhadeen that was funded by many western sources to the tune of billions of $$ and weapons, not to mention ISI and CIA intelligence. They don't have that funding or support now (well it might be argued that the ISI was still feeding them reconnaissance up til a couple years ago), in fact the fudning for the Taliban is pretty thin.

People who rely too heavily on the adage, "history repeats itself" never really consider that hisotry also makes clear breaks from the previous routine to start something new....like India or Bosnia.

It's too easy to look at the situation from the other side of the planet and make rash conclusions about the state there. Negatives are the only stories ever published because whenever a media outlet starts presenting positive stories tehy are labelled propagandists. There is one thing and one thing only that will defeat NATO in Afghanistan and the Taliban know it: a self-fullfilling prophecy of failure and a lack of political will.

[EyeBrock]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Thanos Thanos:

Going by history's verdict this goal should now unfortunately be seen as an existential impossibility. If the British and Soviets couldn't do it, even by using all the brutality they were capable of, then what makes us thinks that we're going to do it with drone attacks and photo-ops. Imposing our systems on an Muslim world that doesn't seem to want anything to do with them is not, in the end run, logical. By comparison, restoring democracy and Western values to the off-the-rails fascist states of Japan And Germany in World War 2 will be seen as infinitely easier in hindsight. I personally have no hope anymore that what we're doing in Afghanistan will have any sort of lasting value.

Well, I agree, and felt that way when they first announced they were going into Afghanistan. The British were thumped on in the 1840s and had at them again in the 1880s and 1920s with nothing gained. The Soviets the same. So there we have it. It's looking like a lost cause.

That being said, NATO committed itself to regime change and went in to take out Osama and remove the Taliban. How can NATO hold its head up with any credibility if they call time of death when things get tough and walk away leaving the country in a mess?

If that's the case, lets do what the NDP wants and become a country of peacekeepers and take the easy missions, or better yet, let's hide like our European partners that recoil at the thought of blood.

Our way out is to stick with it until the agreed date and get the fuck out.

NATO has shown it's arse here. In reality the work is being done by a few countries and those are the countries that will continue to work together militarily.

Those of you still in or with close links in the US, UK, Canadian, Australian forces will know that many old ties have been renewed or strengthened on many levels.

The flip side is that the Germans, French and Italians have been shown to be the paper tigers we all knew they were. The Dutch have had a mixed time. They have done some good shit but too many caveats have limited their effectiveness. At least they have engaged Timmy though, unlike the other Euro wastes of space.

This mission has been a turning point for NATO, and really, outside the four countries mentioned ( I know Australia isn’t in NATO), the rest of NATO has failed us and Afghanistan.

Without all of NATO taking this on, we will not achieve our goals.
Personally I think that the Afghan people don’t deserve any more of our soldier’s lives while they corruptly run their country to the ground, oppress their women and continue to produce illicit narcotics by the tonne.

Let’s do what we agreed to do, get the fuck out and leave them to the stone-age society they so obviously relish.

[raydan]

Bouboumaster Bouboumaster:

Yep, I'm born in Quebec, so, as you may probably think, my mother tongue is french.

If you understand french, mr Guy_Fawkes, I can continue in french, in which I could put my ideas clearer. If not, I will continue in english, even if I make a lot of mistakes. But eh, you can't say I don't make any efforts.

Oh, and Raydan, you're right: Iraq is Irak in french, I just forgot to replace "k" by "q" ^^ That's the kind of mistakes I always make...

That, and the damn verb tense... lol

French is my mother tongue too.
That's why I recognized where your mistakes came from.

[Bouboumaster]

raydan raydan:

Bouboumaster Bouboumaster:

Yep, I'm born in Quebec, so, as you may probably think, my mother tongue is french.

If you understand french, mr Guy_Fawkes, I can continue in french, in which I could put my ideas clearer. If not, I will continue in english, even if I make a lot of mistakes. But eh, you can't say I don't make any efforts.

Oh, and Raydan, you're right: Iraq is Irak in french, I just forgot to replace "k" by "q" ^^ That's the kind of mistakes I always make...

That, and the damn verb tense... lol

French is my mother tongue too.
That's why I recognized where your mistakes came from.

Lol, where are you from?

[raydan]

Bouboumaster Bouboumaster:

raydan raydan:

French is my mother tongue too.
That's why I recognized where your mistakes came from.

Lol, where are you from?

PM incoming...

[Choban]

Regardless of the politics involved, we need to stick to our commitment and pull our troops out in 2011, Train as much of the ANA and ANP as possible before then and hounorably leave the US to deal with their war.

Lets also be sure to give all our boys and girls a Hero's welcome, they did an admirable job in an impossible situation and did it better than anyone else would have. They accomplished much and it may not last but realistically and traditionally there has been no stability in A-Stan for too long for anyone to be able to change it.

[EyeBrock]

I agree in total Choban.

[Newfy]

herbie herbie:

So how come after all the millenia of warfare The Brass seems to have forgotten that if ya wanna pluck something in the middle of a bunch of hostiles you seal the fucking borders first?

Even if you could seal the borders there is enough mines, weapons and ordnance for the Taliban to fight for 10 years.

The thing that amazes me is all the people commenting on the state of Afghanistan now, how so many of the locals don't want us there etc, etc. People who mostly have only the media to base their opinions on.

1. Quite alot has been achieved in Afghanistan. It may not be perfect but it's improving all the time.

2. You'll find alot of Afghan's are very happy to have us there.

3. The current Commander of ISAF (an American) has just brought in new directives which should hopefully mean less pissing off of the locals.

4. The main reason previous efforts to "invade" Afghanistan failed are because they didn't care about the local people and wouldn't think twice about civilian casualties and in many cases deliberately target them.

5. It may suprise some to discover that although Islam is very important to Afghanis they will always chose their tribal traditions over Islam, especially the Pashtus. They weren't always Muslims you know. And that is straight from an Afghans mouth.

I have learned alot about the Afghani people and it looks like the key to success, as simple as it sounds, is just to show the people that we respect them and their culture.

[EyeBrock]

Newfy Newfy:

herbie herbie:

So how come after all the millenia of warfare The Brass seems to have forgotten that if ya wanna pluck something in the middle of a bunch of hostiles you seal the fucking borders first?

Even if you could seal the borders there is enough mines, weapons and ordnance for the Taliban to fight for 10 years.

The thing that amazes me is all the people commenting on the state of Afghanistan now, how so many of the locals don't want us there etc, etc. People who mostly have only the media to base their opinions on.

1. Quite alot has been achieved in Afghanistan. It may not be perfect but it's improving all the time.

2. You'll find alot of Afghan's are very happy to have us there.

3. The current Commander of ISAF (an American) has just brought in new directives which should hopefully mean less pissing off of the locals.

4. The main reason previous efforts to "invade" Afghanistan failed are because they didn't care about the local people and wouldn't think twice about civilian casualties and in many cases deliberately target them.

5. It may suprise some to discover that although Islam is very important to Afghanis they will always chose their tribal traditions over Islam, especially the Pashtus. They weren't always Muslims you know. And that is straight from an Afghans mouth.

I have learned alot about the Afghani people and it looks like the key to success, as simple as it sounds, is just to show the people that we respect them and their culture.

I have heard similar to what you are saying Newf, from my mates over there. The individual Afghans in the areas we and the Brits control are happy to have us, and I would not try and counter an argument from anybody who has done a tour out there but....

Scratch below the surface and you have a feudal and corrupt society who's leaders are getting rich out of all this on the backs of their own people. Afghanistan is a tribal and fractured society and it's security is being organised in an equally fractured way.
Tactically, we, the Yanks, Brits et al are making a difference. Strategically and in the long term, we are creating pockets of development and Afghan society is making incremental steps.

Having spent much of my military life in Third World countries, I have seen this repeated worldwide.
Real, social change won't happen until these 3rd World societies experience their own 'renaissance' their own 'age of reason', universal suffrage, secular governments, judicial independence and the rule of law, domestic armies that protect them instead of oppressing them, police who don't take bribes etc.

Building a new school and the dam with a few roads is a start but these countries need to develop in the same way we in the West did, over centuries.

I remember being in Kenya and being impressed at the then new Mig-23's on the pan. The Air Attaché, bigoted though he was said to me, "Don't be impressed laddy, Stone-age man flying a Mig-23 is still a Stone Age man. When he get's home he will still beat his wife if his supper is not to his tastes."
I dunno, that observation resonated with me. Basically we can not expect societies that are decades behind us socially, to embrace our values. They have to make their own mistakes and build a society that works for them, not one we have transplanted on them.

[Guy_Fawkes]

Ah my mistake, I retract my earlier comment.