[DerbyX]

Gunnair Gunnair:

There is a culture of both victemhood and victor that must be removed first - for they feed each other and ultimately allow neither to progress towards unity. I hear both sides of the argument, and firmly believe that for natives to fit into the cultural mosiac, they need to bring into it only the best of their cultural baggage and leave the rest (which includes their victemhood) at the door. We, on the otherhand, need to be open to including their unique culture and applying it to our own. I'm rather intrigued at sentancing circles actually. The idea of a municiple sentancing circle for petty crimes has a ring of grass roots justice to it.

How do we remove that? Neither you or I have that complex. Your ancestory appears to be Scottish, mine a mix of that and Irish. We are far removed from Culloden by not just time but distance and a new identity from which to spring from.

True they play the victim card (they were). So were we all at one point. canadian culture, Canadian law, and Canadian symbology consists almost entirely on english (re brit ilses) and french.

Due not in too small a part of the lack of said identification of Native tribes.

The sentencing circle has become a focal point in that people believe its a loop hole for which natives escape justice.

The problem is that so often natives have experienced so much misery that their actions are inherent and punishment reinforces that.

Recently we had a child porn bust in Ontario. They freed a 5 year old boy and 12 year old girl.

They charged a 51 year old man and a 14 year old boy. How can we charge a boy considered to young to consent to sex with s sex crime?

Isn't he a victim too?

Sorry to wander seemingly off topic but I meant only to illustrate the fact our justice doesn't have it all together.

[DerbyX]

lily lily:

They ARE Canadian, Derby. If they don`t feel Canadian, whatever that means, it`s not really up to anyone to make them feel differently. It`s up to them.

Thats no different then claiming the Palestinians are Israeli because of boundaries established over them.

I'm as surprised at you attitude as you were of scape over the girl in jail beating incident.

They are only truly Canadian if they believe it.

lily lily:

The same could be said of you and me. If I suddenly felt un-Canadian, I can`t go back anywhere - I`m not an immigrant.

True, except our beliefs, language, culture, and values are enshrined in law. (generally speaking of course).

lily lily:

My opinion - people need to be part of the solution. If Natives don`t feel Canadian, they need to get involved to make any changes they want. That might mean running for government or it might mean joining various causes. Sitting back and saying I`m not happy, someone needs to change things isn`t really going to help.

We need to make them understand that their culture is ours. If we expect them to simply accept being Canadian as is then we will lose.

lily lily:

Tell me though - is it true that Natives don`t feel Canadian? Completely?
Or is it just certain parts they don`t like? Because really - don`t we all have complaints?

Like I said I don't know. I have me a few native when tree planting who were hard working people but to be honest I just assumed they thought it.

Donnie seems an obvious source but most dismiss what he says out of hand as Native racism even when he has a point.

[PJB]

TattoodGirl TattoodGirl:

Did I say everyone would like every sentence? ...I asked why you thought it wouldnt be liked.

No one will agree on anything...thats good actually. I was saying sentencing circles have proved to be effective. They are used as a tool in court to make recommendations on what the victims would like to see fit the crime. The current justice system does not do that...the recommendations come from Crown. I like that victims have the opportunity to go face to face with an accused and to ask for what they see fit as retribution.

After all it should be the victims have the last say.

The only problem with what you say is that the victims of this crime are DEAD and they were this drunks own young children!

[PJB]

I have noticed something on so many of these threads..Canada is a 'Multicultural' country yet one culture within this mosaic is Canadian when they want to be and not Canadian when they don't want to be. Why is that? I did not steal the land from a 14 year old kid that claims that I did! I did not steal anything from people who think it is their right to walk through my back yard to get to where they are going and proudly announce that to my son who asked them where they were going. I did not do anything to the young individuals that think it is their right to deface property because their parents said hate the whiteman.

When does this stop? How many generations of people will be destroyed because some chief believes that the whiteman owes something?

[Gunnair]

Gunnair Gunnair:

There is a culture of both victemhood and victor that must be removed first - for they feed each other and ultimately allow neither to progress towards unity. I hear both sides of the argument, and firmly believe that for natives to fit into the cultural mosiac, they need to bring into it only the best of their cultural baggage and leave the rest (which includes their victemhood) at the door. We, on the otherhand, need to be open to including their unique culture and applying it to our own. I'm rather intrigued at sentancing circles actually. The idea of a municiple sentancing circle for petty crimes has a ring of grass roots justice to it.

Derby wrote:

$1:

How do we remove that? Neither you or I have that complex. Your ancestory appears to be Scottish, mine a mix of that and Irish. We are far removed from Culloden by not just time but distance and a new identity from which to spring from.

That is the problem. Far removed yes, but for some, still emotive. Believe it or not, 300 plus years later, many of us MacDonalds don't take kindly to Campbells. There may not be a bite behind the growl, but it's still there. We may have a new identity, but we didn't leave all of our baggage behind. We did learn to move past it though. Most of the enemity is frivolous... most of it.

$1:

True they play the victim card (they were). So were we all at one point. canadian culture, Canadian law, and Canadian symbology consists almost entirely on english (re brit ilses) and french.Due not in too small a part of the lack of said identification of Native tribes.

As was pointed out, without a unified language, it would be hard to include a native tongue as our third official language. And... could you imagine the bunfight to pick one...

$1:

The sentencing circle has become a focal point in that people believe its a loop hole for which natives escape justice.

Yes... we've certainly seen that in this case.

$1:

The problem is that so often natives have experienced so much misery that their actions are inherent and punishment reinforces that.

I understand that. Apparently they don't, which undermines their right for self determination, I think.

$1:

Recently we had a child porn bust in Ontario. They freed a 5 year old boy and 12 year old girl.

They charged a 51 year old man and a 14 year old boy. How can we charge a boy considered to young to consent to sex with s sex crime? Isn't he a victim too?

That would be up to the courts. I try to avoid (though I sometimes fail) generalizing. Some 14 year olds may be to young to consent bgy law, but that doesn't remove the ability of intent.

$1:

Sorry to wander seemingly off topic but I meant only to illustrate the fact our justice doesn't have it all together.

You are correct, it does not.

[PJB]

lily lily:

PJB PJB:

TattoodGirl TattoodGirl:

Did I say everyone would like every sentence? ...I asked why you thought it wouldnt be liked.

No one will agree on anything...thats good actually. I was saying sentencing circles have proved to be effective. They are used as a tool in court to make recommendations on what the victims would like to see fit the crime. The current justice system does not do that...the recommendations come from Crown. I like that victims have the opportunity to go face to face with an accused and to ask for what they see fit as retribution.

After all it should be the victims have the last say.

The only problem with what you say is that the victims of this crime are DEAD and they were this drunks own young children!

Other victims could include the children`s mother, grandparents and other relatives.

The children's 'mother' was out drinking that night...btw..she was pregnant at the time. DAMN GOOD ROLE MODEL!

[Yogi]

DerbyX DerbyX:

lily lily:

As I said... the claims need to be settled. As for the laws.... we were all born here, and we all fall under the same laws.

I don't see any reason we shouldn't.

No. The natives were born into a country that essentially took them over. They have little choice and when we determining the cultural make-up, the laws, the traditions of this great nation their input was none. Did we consider them in language laws? Flag? Government? Laws in general?

No we did not.

Saying "we are all Canadian" is only true if we give the Natives reason to believe that Canada includes them and there traditions.

We did so for Quebec and the french.

The same applies here.

'Tradition' is one thing and LAW is quite another!


Of course we should ALL respect other cultures traditions. But we ALL should be governed by one set of laws. ie; What is good for the goose is good for the gander!

[Yogi]

ziggy ziggy:

DrJones DrJones:

Thank God it was prison, even if not nearly enough.

So he go's to a medium security then right?
Summary conviction?

Been awhile but 2 years less a day used to mean you went to a minimum security prison.

Has it changed?

A 'deuce-less' is provincial time. Min/med. Either the 'Fort' or Grande Cache.

A 'deuce-plus' your off to federal prison. 'The Drum' or Edmonton Max or for 'white collar crimes' or 'low/no risk' regardless of the crime its 'Bowden'. All prisons have 'P.C.' which is where I really think/hope this POS ends up. Not only will he be 'a marked man' ( in which case it is 'the duty' of every prisoner in G.P.to 'take/make every opportunity to 'get at' and hurt/kill anyone in P.C.)This is a 'hard and fast, albeit unspoken, rule of the first order in every jail, lock-up,prison. And if he does any of his time in P.C. the stigma follows him back to the street for the rest of his life he will be marked and 'forever fearful!

[Yogi]

lily lily:

$1:

I expect everyone to smile and accept our "white man's laws", more commonly known as Canadian Law.

While I agree that in certain circumstances self-rule is a good idea, I think it's time to settle the claims and get on with living as Canadians.

EXCELLENT POV Lily!

I'd rep ya for this if I could.

[Gunnair]

PJB PJB:

I have noticed something on so many of these threads..Canada is a 'Multicultural' country yet one culture within this mosaic is Canadian when they want to be and not Canadian when they don't want to be. Why is that? I did not steal the land from a 14 year old kid that claims that I did! I did not steal anything from people who think it is their right to walk through my back yard to get to where they are going and proudly announce that to my son who asked them where they were going. I did not do anything to the young individuals that think it is their right to deface property because their parents said hate the whiteman.

When does this stop? How many generations of people will be destroyed because some chief believes that the whiteman owes something?

Are you talking about seperatists or natives?

That being said, I believe the culture of victimhood is their biggest impediment. Finger pointing accomplishes nothing, and eventually, once they've exhausted exercising their rights and getting land and money back, they will have to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and get on with living.

[Gunnair]

Yogi Yogi:

DerbyX DerbyX:

lily lily:

As I said... the claims need to be settled. As for the laws.... we were all born here, and we all fall under the same laws.

I don't see any reason we shouldn't.

No. The natives were born into a country that essentially took them over. They have little choice and when we determining the cultural make-up, the laws, the traditions of this great nation their input was none. Did we consider them in language laws? Flag? Government? Laws in general?

No we did not.

Saying "we are all Canadian" is only true if we give the Natives reason to believe that Canada includes them and there traditions.

We did so for Quebec and the french.

The same applies here.

'Tradition' is one thing and LAW is quite another!


Of course we should ALL respect other cultures traditions. But we ALL should be governed by one set of laws. ie; What is good for the goose is good for the gander!

Absolutely. I think the point is to accept some native traditions as Canadian law - i.e. sentancing circle not just for natives, but applied to any Canadian in appropriate circumstances.

[ShepherdsDog]

youth crime should involve sentencing circles. No more anonymity. They face those they have wronged.

[commanderkai]

DerbyX DerbyX:

That depends. Did you join the band and agree to become part of their culture as we expect immigrants to do here?

No no, you said you wanted to include Native culture in the two more dominant cultures (French and English) in the Canadian process. So if Canadian Natives were included in the fabric of Canadian government, what benefits would all citizens get from them?

[commanderkai]

DerbyX DerbyX:

That depends. Did you join the band and agree to become part of their culture as we expect immigrants to do here?

No no, you said you wanted to include Native culture in the two more dominant cultures (French and English) in the Canadian process. So if Canadian Natives were included in the fabric of Canadian government, what benefits would all citizens get from them.

Also, what about the other historical "victims" of Canada's past? Freed slaves, Irish, Italians, Jews, so on and so forth. Italians and Irish, at the turn of the century were basically treated very poorly, and we can all look at Canada's pre-WWII past to see how we rejected WWII refugees (though we weren't the only ones, we were more extreme in our effort, accepting so little even compared to nations like Brazil

[Gunnair]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

youth crime should involve sentencing circles. No more anonymity. They face those they have wronged.

Agreed.