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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:32 pm
 


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I challenge you Derb to find a post on here by me since 03/04 where I EVER said invading Iraq was a good idea. I support the Troops on the ground (those that are not running to Canada that is) as they are doing their job. I still believe they should have dealt with Saddham in 91.
I do agree the world is a better place without old Saddham around. As for Iraq attacking us, not really feasible, though I know you are just stating an example, as we were not in the Iraq war, I don't think they would be all that pissed at us, though any radical muslim will hate us regardless of his postal code.


I'm not saying you did think it was a good idea. Loads of people who support Afghanstan vehemently disagree with Iraq. I just want to point out that if a bunch cave dwellers operating on their own with intangible links to the Taliban somehow justify NATOs invasion then the US actions in Iraq justify large scale violence against them under the exact same logic.

Suppose Russia or China had sided with Iraq instead of both of them allowing the UN to do nothing because they are perfectly willing to let us lose valuable lives and waste billions (trillions for the US) in a war while they build, build, and rebuild their assets.

Now as for justification I think Donny's post was one of the best written. In fact it was during a debate with you if I recall.

post1296765#p1296765


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:35 pm
 


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bootlegga bootlegga:
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But they have enough gas to "fight" somalis on a barge with a 30 HP Johnson engine and a lee enfield!


Don't worry, given Harper's callous indifference to the air force and navy, soon, we'll be little more than a third world banana republic, possessing an army with all the latest toys, yet unable to patrol even our own borders.

Like it or not, the Navy provides a vital service your branch of the armed forces is incapable of.

It's sad that you are so selfish and can only look to support your own branch of the CF.


You really should not assume so much of somebody you know nothing about Boots!


Well, given your total disregard for the Navy, what is anyone supposed to assume? You constantly joke about them going down south to get pissed and paint their ships. Yet, as a sailor, you have no idea what they do, do you? Have you ever been on one of our ships? I have and it's not the beach party you make it out to be.

I would be willing to bet that every 'booze cruise' you talk about had a legitimate training leg or was a work up to a deployment or even a way for us to do things like paint our ships, which in winter I'm sure isn't a pleasant task (or maybe even possible).


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:36 pm
 


bootlegga bootlegga:
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The Army had been neglected for a couple of decades. Unless you count the purchase of LSVW's as a good solid investment. The Navy aquired 10 CPF's in the 90's, I am sure you can google the cost of those much needed ships. I make no change to my comment, if there is only so much to go round, then obviously the guys in need the most are the ones going at it in Afghanistan. The ships painting trips can wait when kit and supplies are needed in SW Asia.


The Army was neglected, yes. Mulroney promised all sorts of things, tanks, Arctic APCs and then turned around and cancelled them after he was elected. Then he helped sell off the Chinooks and started the buy-out plan that saw so many vets retire early, further emasculating the CF. While Chretien was no picnic, he did buy all those lovely LAV IIIs we are using in Afghanistan right now (for the low, low cost of 2 billion or so), for just a little less than the cost of the Halifaxes (they actually built 12, not 10). Then after 9/11, he poured more money in to the Army and bought G-Wagens, Nyalas, M777 Howitzers, etc.

Everyone here bitches that Canada is a nobody on the international scene and that other countries don't respect us. Well, guess how we earn that respect? Things like guarding the Suez Canal during a ceasefire, walking the line in Cyprus, kicking ass in Korea, fighting the Taliban, creating fresh drinking water for Sri Lankans after a tsunami and guarding food ships are some of the ways the CF does that.

As gung ho as you are, the CF is not all about fighting. Yes, the vast majority of its mission profiles include combat. However, simply being there can deter combat in the first place. An excellent example of this was the 40+ years our troops spent in Germany. That didn't involve a lick of combat, but certainly prevented a war didn't it?

Same goes for our naval missions to Haiti, East Timor, Louisana, and other places. All of them may not involve combat but are still important, either in training our sailors for future combat situations or preventing it in the first place. That mission off Africa which you make light off is as important, if not more than Afghanistan, simply because we are helping to see that thousands of people eat today, tomorrow and the next day. Yes, the Navy has missions, which in your eyes seem questionable, but there are similar Army missions where the troops don't see a lick of action and wind up 'training' in bars. Should we cancel all those too? Of course not, because work does get done on those missions too, be it training, liasion with allies, whatever. I suppose you'd be in favour of tying our ships up in port and letting them rust, instead of properly maintaining them? Maybe that's why those trips are important...

Yes, the army needs funding for Afghanistan, but it's not the be all and end all of the CF. With Harper funding less than 29% of Afghanistan's costs, he's actually worse than Chretien, which is mind-boggling!


Are you serious?? Comparing the cold war Beer tours in LAhr and Baden to the Panjwai? I am pretty sure we would be back to square one if we all just stayed behind the wire, as I am sure the Taliban would cease operations because we were hanging out at Timmies on Kandahar Airfield. Better still, get the fleet off the Pakistani coast, that might deter things, as a matter of fact good idea, bring the troops home let the navy keep up our presence in the region (I am serious)

Please don't tell me what the navy does man, like I said you don't know anything about me.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:40 pm
 


DerbyX DerbyX:

Yes, just as there were a few bleeding heart liberals (note lower case) who made the film "behind the veil". Perhaps I should have said that the US govt wasn't the least bit concered with what the Taliban was doing as long as its interests were being served.

In other words we don't care what atrocities others commit as long as they are our allies or at least not openly beligerents.

In my opinion that invalidates any possible argument that we are there to help the people no matter how much foriegn aid we shovel into the region especially when we turn a blind eye to so many others even worse off.

I think the women’s rights are quite a bit larger than "a few bleeding heart liberals" even at that time. It was in the earlier stages of making the public and Politian’s aware of what was going on there. Also long before Behind the Veil was made. It amazes me that some people ignore it or overlook this like it was okay. It was disgusting then and every Taliban should have been executed for promoting this archaic practice. Would you think this was okay for the women in your own family or country to be treated?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:44 pm
 


Streaker Streaker:
Canada was not attacked.

This isn't our fight.


Tell that to the families of the 24 "Canadian" victims of 9/11

http://members.shaw.ca/kcic1/cdnwtc.html


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:48 pm
 


tritium tritium:
Streaker Streaker:
Canada was not attacked.

This isn't our fight.


Tell that to the families of the 24 "Canadian" victims of 9/11

http://members.shaw.ca/kcic1/cdnwtc.html


Amen


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:49 pm
 


Regina Regina:
DerbyX DerbyX:

Yes, just as there were a few bleeding heart liberals (note lower case) who made the film "behind the veil". Perhaps I should have said that the US govt wasn't the least bit concered with what the Taliban was doing as long as its interests were being served.

In other words we don't care what atrocities others commit as long as they are our allies or at least not openly beligerents.

In my opinion that invalidates any possible argument that we are there to help the people no matter how much foriegn aid we shovel into the region especially when we turn a blind eye to so many others even worse off.

I think the women’s rights are quite a bit larger than "a few bleeding heart liberals" even at that time. It was in the earlier stages of making the public and Politian’s aware of what was going on there. Also long before Behind the Veil was made. It amazes me that some people ignore it or overlook this like it was okay. It was disgusting then and every Taliban should have been executed for promoting this archaic practice. Would you think this was okay for the women in your own family or country to be treated?


Yet because of cold war angst we sided with the oppressors because it suited us. A primary cause of war with the soviets were theit support of a govt and their own attempts at modernizing the very tribal cultures we are. The US used this to their advatage when they played up the whole Mujahideen angle fighting the USSR trying to force their ways on a tribal culture that has existed for centuries.

They may have been awful but again it certainly wasn't the right wingers careing in the least and had they certainly wouldn't have lifted a finger had the US gotten OBL on a silver platter. They would have taken him into custody and had a circus trial then Afghanistan would have been forgotten in the wake of the Iraq invasion.

BTW, we were once very bad where womens rights were concerned.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/ballot/womenvote.asp

Every culture has struggled with modern and radical ideas replacing old ones and that is even harder for tribal cultures that have been like that for hundreads if not thousands of years and they deserve every right to come to terms with changing ways by their own means and methods without elietist westerners forcing them at gunpoint.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:50 pm
 


tritium tritium:
Streaker Streaker:
Canada was not attacked.

This isn't our fight.


Tell that to the families of the 24 "Canadian" victims of 9/11

http://members.shaw.ca/kcic1/cdnwtc.html


Again, neather the Afghani people nor it's government had anything to do with 9/11. You can't sell it. It wont fly.


Last edited by OPP on Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:50 pm
 


tritium tritium:
Streaker Streaker:
Canada was not attacked.

This isn't our fight.


Tell that to the families of the 24 "Canadian" victims of 9/11

http://members.shaw.ca/kcic1/cdnwtc.html


Why not add the hundreads of thousands killed by western coalition forces in Afghanistan and Iraq?

They are dead because of our aggression.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:02 pm
 


DerbyX DerbyX:
Yet because of cold war angst we sided with the oppressors because it suited us. A primary cause of war with the soviets were theit support of a govt and their own attempts at modernizing the very tribal cultures we are. The US used this to their advatage when they played up the whole Mujahideen angle fighting the USSR trying to force their ways on a tribal culture that has existed for centuries.

They may have been awful but again it certainly wasn't the right wingers careing in the least and had they certainly wouldn't have lifted a finger had the US gotten OBL on a silver platter. They would have taken him into custody and had a circus trial then Afghanistan would have been forgotten in the wake of the Iraq invasion.

BTW, we were once very bad where womens rights were concerned.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/ballot/womenvote.asp

Every culture has struggled with modern and radical ideas replacing old ones and that is even harder for tribal cultures that have been like that for hundreads if not thousands of years and they deserve every right to come to terms with changing ways by their own means and methods without elietist westerners forcing them at gunpoint.
The cold war has nothing to do with what I was talking about. You said “Once again, the US were not in the least bit concerned with the plight of the Afghans before or even after 9/11 nor was Canada.” And I pointed out the fact that there was a growing concern for this before 911 and provided factual information. You’ve now tried to put women not being able to vote 90 years ago on par with it being all right to execute them at will today.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:05 pm
 


Like comparing being in Germany with your family for a 10 year posting to standing by in Kandahar behind the wire as a deterence


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:06 pm
 


Regina Regina:
DerbyX DerbyX:
Yet because of cold war angst we sided with the oppressors because it suited us. A primary cause of war with the soviets were theit support of a govt and their own attempts at modernizing the very tribal cultures we are. The US used this to their advatage when they played up the whole Mujahideen angle fighting the USSR trying to force their ways on a tribal culture that has existed for centuries.

They may have been awful but again it certainly wasn't the right wingers careing in the least and had they certainly wouldn't have lifted a finger had the US gotten OBL on a silver platter. They would have taken him into custody and had a circus trial then Afghanistan would have been forgotten in the wake of the Iraq invasion.

BTW, we were once very bad where womens rights were concerned.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/ballot/womenvote.asp

Every culture has struggled with modern and radical ideas replacing old ones and that is even harder for tribal cultures that have been like that for hundreads if not thousands of years and they deserve every right to come to terms with changing ways by their own means and methods without elietist westerners forcing them at gunpoint.
The cold war has nothing to do with what I was talking about. You said “Once again, the US were not in the least bit concerned with the plight of the Afghans before or even after 9/11 nor was Canada.” And I pointed out the fact that there was a growing concern for this before 911 and provided factual information. You’ve now tried to put women not being able to vote 90 years ago on par with it being all right to execute them at will today.


I pointed out that the US govt didn't care what they were doing before and after 9/11 and that we wouldn't be there had OBL been caught.

I also show that we aren't so lily white and that just because other cultures haven't progressed as far as we have or as fast doesn't give us the right to tell them what to do.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:07 pm
 


PENATRATOR PENATRATOR:
tritium tritium:
Streaker Streaker:
Canada was not attacked.

This isn't our fight.


Tell that to the families of the 24 "Canadian" victims of 9/11

http://members.shaw.ca/kcic1/cdnwtc.html


Amen



you both know he will never look at it. :roll:



we were attacked and it is our fight.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:14 pm
 


martin14 martin14:
we were attacked and it is our fight.

Still in la la land, eh. Incredible.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:18 pm
 


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Are you serious?? Comparing the cold war Beer tours in LAhr and Baden to the Panjwai? I am pretty sure we would be back to square one if we all just stayed behind the wire, as I am sure the Taliban would cease operations because we were hanging out at Timmies on Kandahar Airfield. Better still, get the fleet off the Pakistani coast, that might deter things, as a matter of fact good idea, bring the troops home let the navy keep up our presence in the region (I am serious)

Please don't tell me what the navy does man, like I said you don't know anything about me.


I can't think you are anything but thick if you think that our deployment to Germany was a joke...yeah, WW3 and a nuclear holocaust would be sooooooo much easier to deal with than a few thousand terrorists in the mountains of a country 10,000 miles from Canada... :roll:

You've been in Afghanistan way too long if you think that is the only mission Canada has done in recent years that was worthwhile.


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