[Reverend Blair]

$1:

Pot, kettle.

Kettle, pot.

Nice try, Toro, but the NDP never hired anybody from the Politburo as an advisor. There was a clear difference from the very beginning of the democratic socialist movement in North America.

The Conservatives have not only hired Republican advisors with neo-conservative credentials in past elections, but many of the party's Canadian advisors (if you can accept that the American Flanagan is Canadian), and the party's leader were openly members of what is known as the Calgary School...the base of neo-conservatism in Canada.

[bootlegga]

CommanderSock CommanderSock:

I am hoping for a conservative government in the Thatcher mould. Fiscally tight. Steady policy of balanced budgets, respectable military spending, and socially non-opinionated. A government that can stray slightly from an ideology assuming reason is overwhelmingly against some of its core beliefs.

What we have gotten instead, is the opposite. We got an united conservative party that represents the Canadian right wing, basically a core ideology which they stray very little from. Their ideology is that of the Canadian Alliance. Elements of the Progressive Cons have subsided or disappeared altogether.

We have a government that is more interested in soft social issues such as fetus management, morals in the media, consensual age of sex, so on and so forth. These are non issues. They are not important in the great scheme of things. How about the economy stupid?

I don’t blame Harper for the downturn of the economy. I blame him for putting salt on old wounds (trying to re-ignite the abortion debate), and his staunch stance on social issues as mentioned above.

The liberal party was not the most economically progressive party of Canada, but they helped clear our debit through solid budgets and cuts in federal spending. The Mulroney government for all the slack it receives had provided groundwork of stable growth in those liberal years through NAFTA and other more minor international accords. Harper’s government has tried to undermine some of that work by reckless GST cuts, wheat board tampering, and reckless spending in Ontario, which was by the way, nothing more than just a vote buying scheme.

Can the social conservatives please fuck off? Please fiscal conservatives, come back. We’re tired of your evil twin.

Had we gotten a government like that, I could have seen myself voting for the Conservatives this time around. As it stands, with Harper flip flops and pandering to the hard core right, I see myself searching for an alternative...maybe the Rhino party will start up again...

[saturn_656]

CommanderSock CommanderSock:

Can the social conservatives please fuck off? Please fiscal conservatives, come back. We’re tired of your evil twin.

Back to where?

[CommanderSock]

$1:

Back to where?

To main-stream politics.

[Toro]

Reverend Blair Reverend Blair:

Nice try, Toro, but the NDP never hired anybody from the Politburo as an advisor. There was a clear difference from the very beginning of the democratic socialist movement in North America.

The Conservatives have not only hired Republican advisors with neo-conservative credentials in past elections, but many of the party's Canadian advisors (if you can accept that the American Flanagan is Canadian), and the party's leader were openly members of what is known as the Calgary School...the base of neo-conservatism in Canada.

The Canadian Left using loose associations and faulty reasoning to create an American boogie-man to scare Canadians. Wow, haven't seen that before!

American advisers? BFD. The NDP hired American advisers in at least one campaign that I know of. In 1993, the NDP hired a Washington DC based political consulting firm to produce TV ads for the election. In it, they had "ordinary Canadians" yelling into the camera how upset they were at the direction of the country and how the conservatives sold out. How ironic. The firm was also paid a retainer to advise on strategy. When it was found out, the NDP apologized and pulled the ad and fired the firm. Another successful NDP campaign.

[Reverend Blair]

I didn't say American advisors though, Toro, I said "Republican advisors with neo-conservative credentials." You were denying the connection between the Neo-Cons and the Harperites.

There have been plenty of connections made between the religious right in the US and the influence they have in Canada too. Most of those connections are part of the neo-conservative movement too.

And let's not forget Harper wanting to invade Iraq or the way the Harperites used to freak out at the slightest criticism of George Bush and his neo-conservative government.

The Conservatives never apologized for hiring the likes of Frank Luntz. Instead they happily adopted the rhetoric and tactics he suggested...the same rhetoric and tactics used by the neo-conservatives in the United States.

[ridenrain]

More straw men the left can hide behind.

[Toro]

This is what I mean by damning through loose associations.

Reverend Blair Reverend Blair:

I didn't say American advisors though, Toro, I said "Republican advisors with neo-conservative credentials." You were denying the connection between the Neo-Cons and the Harperites.

No, what I'm denying is that the Tories are neoconservatives, which is what you are either constantly saying or implying. The fact that some writer on the far left concocts an intellectual hatchet job that the Tories are neoconservatives is about as surprising as the sun coming up in the east every morning since the Canadian Left has been baying for decades that the PCs, Tories, Conservatives, Reform or whatever is merely an extension of the US right-wing as a way of trying to polarize and scaring the electorate. Frank Luntz hasn't got anything on you guys.

$1:

There have been plenty of connections made between the religious right in the US and the influence they have in Canada too. Most of those connections are part of the neo-conservative movement too.

Let me tell you something as someone who lives in the Deep South, you haven't got a frickin' clue how deep the religious right is here. Its not even close to what's in Canada, and I've spent time in some of Canada's most religious places, particularly in the Fraser Valley. The religious right down here, and just the general religiosity of the place, makes the Tories look like atheists. I live in a liberal city and 80% of the people go to church on Sundays. I can't think of anywhere in Canada like that.

Plus, the connection between the neocons and the religious right is an alliance of convenience, which you would know if you poked your head out of the Briarpatch and observed American politics.

$1:

Kristol noted that Strauss' contribution was to help neoconservatives to understand the importance of religion in the political life of a nation. "Religion was not part of elite culture found at places like Harvard," said Kristol. "It was not thought appropriate for highly educated people to learn too much about religion." Straussians, who were not well regarded in the academy, took religion seriously. "They played a very important role in the culture war by keeping neoconservative intellectuals pro-religion," says Kristol. This pro-religion stance gave neoconservative intellectuals a way to influence the wider American culture. Liberal and left intellectuals who disdained religious belief were distrusted by most Americans and this distrust helped check liberal influence and policies.

However, Kristol pointed out that Straussians were not generally themselves committed to religion. Kristol added that Americans "don't bother with theology. The fact is that the moral dimension of religion is what counts for Americans."

http://www.reason.com/news/show/34900.html

The contradiction that the intellectual fathers of neoconservatism were Jews while much of the Religious Right supports Israel simply because it must exist before it can be anhiliated in prophecy seems not to have occurred to you.

$1:

And let's not forget Harper wanting to invade Iraq or the way the Harperites used to freak out at the slightest criticism of George Bush and his neo-conservative government.

Well, I guess anyone that supports the invasion of Iraq is a neocon! That makes Tony Blair a "neocon." Damn Labor neocons! And let's not forget the "neocon" governments of Denmark, Holland, Portugal, Poland and Australia that also sent troops.

Its just so much easier to be able to label everyone on the right as "neocons."

$1:

The Conservatives never apologized for hiring the likes of Frank Luntz. Instead they happily adopted the rhetoric and tactics he suggested...the same rhetoric and tactics used by the neo-conservatives in the United States.

Why should they apologize for hiring a consultant that is really good at what he does? Maybe the NDP thinks hiring losers is a good idea, I don't know.

Educate yourself and listen.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=6761960

[herbie]

$1:

We have a government that is more interested in soft social issues such as fetus management, morals in the media, consensual age of sex, so on and so forth. These are non issues. They are not important in the great scheme of things. How about the economy stupid?

Doesn't it rile you having to explain that taxes on consumption are better than taxes on income to a fucking conservative?
As someone mentioned the other day, it takes 48 pages to explain Dion's Carbon Tax and only five words to dis it (it's a tax on everything) so what do the barely literate remember?
The word conservative has been hijacked by those who want to impose their beliefs on others and economics is "just too hard to understand".

[Reverend Blair]

$1:

Straussians, who were not well regarded in the academy, took religion seriously. "They played a very important role in the culture war by keeping neoconservative intellectuals pro-religion," says Kristol. This pro-religion stance gave neoconservative intellectuals a way to influence the wider American culture.

That's from your own post, Toro.

How did Leo Strauss suggest keeping his ruling elite in power? Well, he had a plan:

1. Appeal to populism.
2. Use extreme nationalism.
3. Use religion.
4. Use the military as a symbol.
5. Use national symbols.

Now look at Harper's government. They pretend to be populists, but are really elitists. They use extreme nationalism...flags all over the place and meaningless catch phrases like "made in Canada" abound in their rhetoric. They've cuddled right up to the religious right. They encourage an almost bizarre adoration of the military. They use hockey and Tim Hortons and Canadian Tire as props.

So they are following Straussian theory and using Straussian tactics. Strauss is basically the father of neoconservatism. So how are they not neoconservatives?

[Toro]

Reverend Blair Reverend Blair:

That's from your own post, Toro.

How did Leo Strauss suggest keeping his ruling elite in power? Well, he had a plan:

1. Appeal to populism.
2. Use extreme nationalism.
3. Use religion.
4. Use the military as a symbol.
5. Use national symbols.

Now look at Harper's government. They pretend to be populists, but are really elitists. They use extreme nationalism...flags all over the place and meaningless catch phrases like "made in Canada" abound in their rhetoric. They've cuddled right up to the religious right. They encourage an almost bizarre adoration of the military. They use hockey and Tim Hortons and Canadian Tire as props.

So they are following Straussian theory and using Straussian tactics. Strauss is basically the father of neoconservatism. So how are they not neoconservatives?

Because those tactics are used by many politicians around the world of all political stripes. Those are the tactics of Hugo Chavez for example. But he's not a neocon. With the exception of religion, you have described Castro. Replace #3 with "cult of personality" and you've described Kim Jong-il or Stalin. Three of those five are characteristics of the NDP, and one could argue that you could throw religion in there given that the original founders of the CCF were men of the cloth.

Neoconservatism is a philosophy. You are confusing tactics with philosophy. To the American neoconservatives, religion is co-opted as a tactic to advance a higher agenda. The US is a far more religious country than Canada. Whatever one might think of the religious right - and I have little use for social conservatism - they are, or at least were, an untapped source of votes. Karl Rove figured this out and he's an atheist! But that doesn't matter to him because he's a tactician. Religion was co-opted by the likes of the neocons and the Karl Roves to advance an agenda.

Now look at Canada. Have you been to church lately? The pews are empty. Attendance has fallen dramatically the past few decades. Most Canadians may say they believe in God, but they are not motivated by religion. The intensity of religion is lacking in Canada, unlike the US. For most Canadians, they do not want religion in their politics. The politicians may be religious but they don't want it intruding in the political arena, whereas in America, especially here in the South, it is much more tolerated and sometimes outright expected.

So, since neoconservatives co-opt religion as a tactic, and since Canadians want little to do with religion in politics, transferring the American analogy to Canadian politics doesn't work because it is a tactical disadvantage to co-opt religion in politics in Canada. Either that or the Tories are really, really stupid since they don't understand either the tactical landscape of Canadian politics or the philosophy of the neoconservatism they are trying to emulate. Yeah sure, the Tories are going to play to parts of their base in the rural areas, but they were doing that long before anyone had heard of Leo Strauss.

[Reverend Blair]

I'm not confusing anything, Toro. What I'm doing is outlining how the Conservative Party of Canada has close ties to the US neo-conservatism movement, including the matter of them using a playbook suggested by Leo Strauss, who is generally credited with the philosophy and many of the methods behind neo-conservatism.

You are pretty funny with your assertions that religion doesn't play a role in Conservative tactics and policy too. Chuck McVety anyone? Trying to limit arts funding through income tax (the big Conservative talking point was a movie called "Young People Fucking")? A partial birth abortion bill that is almost exactly the same as the ones used by the religious right in the US? Appointing a ultra-Conservative Jew to the scientific ethics committee? The whole "family values" thing? Mailing cards to people based on their religion?

The Conservatives are a lot more stealthy up here, they learned the importance of that after we kicked the crap out of Doris Day, but there is no doubt that religion plays a big role in their plans.

There are also videos showing senior Conservatives...the Neanderthalish attack goon Jason Kenney for one...using religious gatherings both to raise money and to drum up support.

You know as well as I do that the Calgary School is the home of neo-conservatism in Canada. You also know that Harper and his cadre had their strongest connections to the U of C when the Calgary School was at it's strongest. It's kind of funny that the Conservatives try to play that down now though. They weren't doing that when Harper was complaining that we were weren't getting involved in the quagmire in Iraq.

[uwish]

well, sure hope the liberals didn't have any connection to terrorists


uuuu wait they did.

as for the socialists (aka NDP) no one is buying their tree hugging story. Taliban jacks' tax and spend mentality combined with complete lack of touch with reality in the world makes him sit in a distant third place.

Sorry, but people aren't buying his ideas.

[Reverend Blair]

Nice claim there, Uwish. What proof do you have that the Liberals had connections to terrorists?

[uwish]

for fun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XO2dC5jX ... re=related