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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:09 pm
 


acidcomplex acidcomplex:
If we want to start then lets get going.I have some facts for us "un-caring people"

Supporters claim the site reduces overdoses and HIV infection-transfers among injection drug users by preventing them from sharing needles. Crime rates are also said to have dropped in the vicinity of the site.

According to a new study authored by Colin Mangham, director of research with the Drug Prevention Network of Canada, those claims are faulty and ignore research showing the project has failed to reach its goals, the Canadian Press reported May 3.

“[The findings] give an impression the facility is successful, when in fact the research clearly shows a lack of program impact and success,”

Or maybe this as well

The number of overdose deaths in Vancouver and the Downtown Eastside has increased since Insite started up. This…at least suggests that in its three years of operation Insite has produced no impact on overdose deaths.”


Perhaps not outside of the clinic, but in the clinic itself, there have been no deaths due to overdose. You do not necessarily die from an overdose.

$1:
“Only exclusive use of Insite correlates with reduced sharing. If someone uses Insite for all their injections, it goes without saying they would not share needles. Only one in 10 HIV negative participants reported using Insite for all their injections.”


Just because not everyone is using it means it shouldn't exist? Poor argument. Better that the clinic be there for those who do want to use it, than not have it at all.

$1:
Initial reports on the facility claimed the initiative was successful because of the high volume of users--as many as 600 per day. Within a six-month span in the first year of operation there were 107 overdoses reported among 72 “clients” of the facility, the report also acknowledged. As well, the report stated that only 2.3 per cent of addicts using the site contacted a nurse or counselor, saying, “visits to Insite for nursing care or counseling have been uncommon to date.”


Again, the claim is that there have been no deaths as a result of overdose. Just because you overdose doesn't necessarily mean you will die. In fact, if you overdose in a clinic or a hospital, there is a much greater chance that you will live.

It doesn't matter if very few people have requested counselling, the point is that it's there for those who want to do get better.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:35 pm
 


romanP romanP:

Perhaps not outside of the clinic, but in the clinic itself, there have been no deaths due to overdose. You do not necessarily die from an overdose.


If they havent done any good outside of the clinic then whats the good in that?


romanP romanP:
Better that the clinic be there for those who do want to use it, than not have it at all.


That is your opion, dont try to pass it off as fact.



romanP romanP:
It doesn't matter if very few people have requested counselling, the point is that it's there for those who want to do get better.


Well yeah it does , part of your own defense for this is talking about how many people it helps get into counseling, when in reality it doesnt.

Why don't we give people with speed addictions fast cars and tracks to drive on, or maybe molesters a bunch of children locked in a jail cell with therapists on staff? well why not there "addictions" too.

These sites are enabling there users to do stuff thats illegal simple as that really. Someone feel free to explain this to me?. The gov says Its illegal to buy this stuff and illegal to use it,then the GOV gives them a place to do these illegal things. Im sorry how is this not encouraging them?. If you have become addicted to herion whos fault is that?

Also anyone have the stats of all the first timers that now have a fun place to get messed up knowing that they have a babysitter. How many first timers does this place convert to drug users. Allot harder to be comfortable shooting up when it -35 outside.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:03 pm
 


acidcomplex acidcomplex:
romanP romanP:

Perhaps not outside of the clinic, but in the clinic itself, there have been no deaths due to overdose. You do not necessarily die from an overdose.


If they havent done any good outside of the clinic then whats the good in that?


Well, just how much intervention do you want before it becomes invasive?

$1:
romanP romanP:
Better that the clinic be there for those who do want to use it, than not have it at all.


That is your opion, dont try to pass it off as fact.


I wasn't. But I think it is a reasonable opinion to have. Should we offer addicts a choice to recover or at least use their drugs safely, or no choice but to continue being an addict who will much more likely become infected from a dirty needle?

$1:
romanP romanP:
It doesn't matter if very few people have requested counselling, the point is that it's there for those who want to do get better.


Well yeah it does , part of your own defense for this is talking about how many people it helps get into counseling, when in reality it doesnt.


I didn't say how many. I just said that it happens.

$1:
Why don't we give people with speed addictions fast cars and tracks to drive on, or maybe molesters a bunch of children locked in a jail cell with therapists on staff? well why not there "addictions" too.


Because that's not a reasonable argument, nor one that is even relative to the kind of addiction we're talking about.

$1:
These sites are enabling there users to do stuff thats illegal simple as that really. Someone feel free to explain this to me?. The gov says Its illegal to buy this stuff and illegal to use it,then the GOV gives them a place to do these illegal things.


That's the basis of your whole opposition to it? It's illegal, therefore it's bad, and it's bad because it's illegal? Authority without reason is always acceptable?

$1:
Im sorry how is this not encouraging them?


The point isn't to encourage or discourage, it's to provide a safe place to inject drugs while offering a way out, and keep dirty needles off the street.

$1:
If you have become addicted to herion whos fault is that?


If you get drunk and decide to cut up some fruit with a sharp knife and cut yourself badly, it's your fault. Does that mean that no hospital should stitch you up?

$1:
Also anyone have the stats of all the first timers that now have a fun place to get messed up knowing that they have a babysitter. How many first timers does this place convert to drug users. Allot harder to be comfortable shooting up when it -35 outside.


I very much doubt they're encouraging people who have never used heroin before to start doing so. Again, that's not the point of having the clinic.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:18 am
 


romanP romanP:

Well, just how much intervention do you want before it becomes invasive?


Dodging the question I see.


romanP romanP:
I wasn't. But I think it is a reasonable opinion to have. Should we offer addicts a choice to recover or at least use their drugs safely, or no choice but to continue being an addict who will much more likely become infected from a dirty needle?


There is always a choice, with or without a home to do drugs in, there is always a choice.

romanP romanP:

I didn't say how many. I just said that it happens.


So if it saves one person its worth the cost of running this place?. I dont think so IMO


romanP romanP:
Because that's not a reasonable argument, nor one that is even relative to the kind of addiction we're talking about.


Why isnt it reasonable?. Is it reasonable to give criminals a place to commit crimes?. Make no mistake what there doing is illegal and criminal. The idea behind the logic is the same.




romanP romanP:
The point isn't to encourage or discourage, it's to provide a safe place to inject drugs while offering a way out, and keep dirty needles off the street.


Well your encouragin them a hell of allot more then a -35 night outside would.


romanP romanP:
If you get drunk and decide to cut up some fruit with a sharp knife and cut yourself badly, it's your fault. Does that mean that no hospital should stitch you up?


Since when is cutting fruit illegal?? Oh right its not, therfore yes they should stich me up.

romanP romanP:
I very much doubt they're encouraging people who have never used heroin before to start doing so. Again, that's not the point of having the clinic.


I agree thats not the point of the clinic but I would be hard to believe it doesnt happen. They are encouraging them by giving them a place to do drugs, simple really.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:26 pm
 


I often don't agree with her but Margaret Wente has been doing a series on Insite:

$1:
We still await the scientific proof of harm reduction's success

By MARGARET WENTE
mwente@globeandmail.com
Tuesday, July 15, 2008 – Page A13

Ten months before Vancouver's supervised-injection site opened in 2003, two young researchers gave a stirring presentation. They argued that such a facility was vital in order to reduce public-health problems and disorder in the city's notorious drug scene. The evidence from elsewhere was overwhelming, they insisted, and it was time to act. "I'm all for it," said Evan Wood, one of the presenters. "Get one open. Enough's enough already."

Neither Mr. Wood nor his colleague, Thomas Kerr, had a background in addictions medicine or public policy. Mr. Kerr was a PhD candidate in educational psychology, and Mr. Wood was a PhD candidate in health and epidemiology. Yet today, they and a small group of associates have made their reputation in the world of drug policy as the authors of nearly two dozen research papers - every one of which reports remarkably positive results for Insite, the controversial supervised-injection facility for which they themselves had lobbied hard.

It is this research - all produced under the umbrella of the B.C. Centre for Excellence in HIV/AIDS - that is repeatedly cited as scientific proof of Insite's success. It is this research that has persuaded politicians, policy-makers, editorial writers and much of the general public that Insite is a compassionate and progressive tool for harm reduction that saves lives and reduces suffering. After all, at least 22 peer-reviewed papers say so.

In fact, Mr. Wood, Mr. Kerr and their associates often act more like advocates than impartial researchers. They aggressively denounce anyone who even suggests that the value of Insite might still be a matter for legitimate study or debate. They accuse Insite's critics of being blinded by ideology and of willfully ignoring mountains of "peer-reviewed," "evidence-based" studies.

Yet even experts who think Insite is a worthwhile experiment say the case has not yet been made. Dr. Brian Conway, one of Canada's top experts on AIDS policy, is one of them. "How much has it done in terms of reducing the HIV-Hep-C infection rate, the rate of serious illness that results from drug use, in terms of saving lives? That hasn't been demonstrated." Nor is quantity the same as quality. The sheer volume of published research "is more of a tribute to the efficiency of the people who are writing the papers than anything else." And in public, the researchers "have tended not to present the limitations" of their findings.

Some people are not so diplomatic. "You can churn out all the research you like if you've got a vested interest," says addictions doctor Milan Khara. The B.C. Centre for Excellence receives millions of dollars worth of government contracts for research on drug issues. The tab for the Insite studies is well over $2-million. Yet none of these studies addresses the central issue in the public mind: Does Insite reduce overall drug use?

Garth Davies teaches research methodology at Simon Fraser University's school of criminology. He recently published an evaluation of all the research literature on safe-injection facilities, including Insite. He wasn't impressed. "[They] are too often credited with generating positive effects that are not borne out by solid empirical evidence," he wrote. "As a result of methodological and analytical problems ... all claims remain open to question."

Despite this fatal weakness, "there are very few other substantive areas of research where the debate is this one-sided," Prof. Davies said in an interview. The same small set of people peer-review each other's work, and even the drug journals are politicized. "It's very difficult to get a contrarian opinion published. If you're not on the side of supervised injection, you get marginalized."

In any event, researchers who want to analyze the data for themselves are out of luck, because the researchers refuse to share it. Steven Lehrer, who studies health economics at Queen's University, says it's frustrating. "They were reporting unbelievably large effects," he says. And that makes it especially important for independent researchers to validate the results. "They don't seem interested," he says.

Could it be that the fix is in? When researchers behave like advocates, it's hard to believe otherwise. "They act as if it's a done deal," says Prof. Davies. "It has become a professional mission for them."


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:47 pm
 


How long till roman dismisses this info as `bias`or `unusable`etc...? lol


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:52 pm
 


lily lily:
$1:
I often don't agree with her but Margaret Wente has been doing a series on Insite:


It's funny. On other threads, some sources are dismissed because of who said them or where they appeared..... unless of course you agree with what they're saying this time.


Thats true,Allot of those time the "sources" are some useless person who really doesnt know what there talking about not actualy people who can back up what there claiming.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:17 pm
 


lily lily:
A lot of the time the sources are merely from a newspaper that some feel is biased. This of course doesn't stop them from using their own sources that are equally biased...

Unless you happen to agree with it.... then it's okay to use it.



Assuming that they actually are equally bias i agree. Human nature


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:59 pm
 


I don't always agree with Wente so that's why I put that in. I also don't expect her, nor anyones words to be some unquestionable endorsement so it's still up to the reader to decide. This does address the huge number of pro-Insite documents however.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:07 pm
 


I'm done with this thread. The responses contain largely nothing but circular logic and obsession with authority without reason. Arguing with blockheads is a waste of time.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:00 am
 


haha and there it is, proved wrong and out the door


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:39 am
 


I would like to suggest the 4 walls approach to drug addiction. When someone is arrested and the police suspect that they are a cronic drug user a blood sample will be taken. If they are found to have illegal drugs in their system, rather than wasting time with courts and trials they will be forced into the 4 walls treatment.

Which is a 2 year term served in the luxury and comfort of their 10 by 10 cell in solitary confinement. This gives them the time to break any drug addication without any chance of drug useage while in jail. Because we care for the people trying to break their addiction a radio will be provided offering them hours of enjoyment.


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