[ManifestDestiny]

Donny_Brasco Donny_Brasco:

Chavez raised the standards of living for most of his people.

Any links or evidence

Where is CM Burns asking for proof??????????

Of course not it fits his marxist anti american agenda

[fifeboy]

ManifestDestiny ManifestDestiny:

So in my view Hugo Chavez is full of shit and has not changed a thing in venzuela, Just differnet people getting rich. But of course you like him cause he is Anti-American. end of story commie


GO fys

Wow, this is good. Hugo the Anti Yank. Sounds like a cartoon character to me. Some see him as villain, others as super-hero! How will history see him? By the way, is a story commie a thing to hold stories, or what? But then, you are free to spread your "story", ManifestDestiny from sea to sea! Or is that sea to sea to sea to sea???

[Toro]

There is evidence to suggest that the poor have not benefited under Chavez any more than one would expect with oil at $135.

$1:

Neither official statistics nor independent estimates show any evidence that Chávez has reoriented state priorities to benefit the poor. Most health and human development indicators have shown no significant improvement beyond that which is normal in the midst of an oil boom. Indeed, some have deteriorated worryingly, and official estimates indicate that income inequality has increased. The "Chávez is good for the poor" hypothesis is inconsistent with the facts.

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20080301f ... ution.html

[Donny_Brasco]

ManifestDestiny ManifestDestiny:

Donny_Brasco Donny_Brasco:

Chavez raised the standards of living for most of his people.

Any links or evidence

Where is CM Burns asking for proof??????????

Of course not it fits his marxist anti american agenda

Did you bother to read the Wiki criticizm? I guess not because that is what it says.

Here, because I know your too stupid to find the article yourself.

$1:

According to The Boston Globe, the head of Mission Sucre, a program to provide free and ongoing education, says that “investments in education, health, and infrastructure will have a lasting effect on standard of living”. Data from a private Venezuelan research firm shows the incomes of the “poorest Venezuelans have risen because of subsidies and grants”. The Globe reports that the government has “subsidized markets in poor neighborhoods that sell staple foods up to 40 percent cheaper than elsewhere.” Low income residents are reportedly living better because of subsidies that boost household income, decrease food costs, and provide access to free schooling and basic medical care. Chavez’s “missions” offer education, aid to the needy, soup kitchens, and medical care.[6] There have been marked improvements in the infant mortality rate between 1998 and 2005

[ManifestDestiny]

$1:

"Domestically, Chávez has launched the Bolivarian Missions: a series of social programs whose stated goals are to combat disease, illiteracy, malnutrition, poverty, and other social ills. The Missions have entailed, among other things, the launching of massive government anti-poverty initiatives,[67][68] the construction of thousands of free medical doctor's offices for the poor,[69] the institution of educational campaigns that have reportedly made more than one million adult Venezuelans literate,[70][71] and the enactment of food[72] and housing subsidies.[73]

Chávez was first elected on an anti-corruption platform and on promises of redistributing wealth to the poor, but Michael Shifter of Georgetown University's School of Foreign Service says that "despite record oil profits that are funding social spending, his initiatives have yielded only very modest gains",[5] and The Economist reports that his policies are most vulnerable in the areas of corruption, jobs and crime.[74]

During Chávez's presidency from 1999 to 2004, per-capita GDP dropped overall by 1–2 %, [75], with the overall poor performance largely due to the 24.9% gdp drop over 2003 associated with the opposition-backed oil strike.[3]but with the help of rising oil prices, the end of the oil strike, and strong consumption growth, recent economic activity under Chávez has been robust. GDP growth rates were 18% in 2004,[76] 9% in 2005,[77] and 9.6% in the first half of 2006, with the private sector growing at a 10.3% clip.[78] From 2004 to the first half of 2006, non-petroleum sectors of the economy showed growth rates greater than 10%.[79] Some economists argue that this subsidized growth could stop if oil prices decline,[36] and some social scientists and economists claim that the government's reported poverty figures have not fallen in proportion to the country's vast oil revenues in the last two years.[76] The president of a private Venezuelan research firm which documented 55% real income growth among the poorest sectors of society said that, although his surveys showed rising incomes because of subsidies and grants, the number of people in the worst living conditions has grown. "The poor of Venezuela are living much better lately and have increased their purchasing power . . . without being able to improve their housing, education level, and social mobility," he said. "Rather than help [the poor] become stakeholders in the economic system, what [the government has] done is distribute as much oil wealth as possible in missions and social programs."[6]

According to government figures, unemployment has dropped by 6.9% since the start of Chávez's presidency.[80][81] Despite high oil revenues, Venezuela's rate of unemployment remains at 10% in February 2006 from the 2003 high of 20%, which occurred during a two-month strike and business lockout that shut down the country's oil industry, crippling the economy in an attempt to drive Chavez from power by laying the blame for the chaos at his doorstep. However, some economists argue that recent job creation may not be permanent, for it relies on an expanded public payroll that will become unaffordable if oil prices fall.[76] Critics also question the government's reported poverty figures, based on contradictory statistics and definitions,[5] which they say have not fallen enough considering the country's vast oil revenues in the last two years.[76] The Economist reports that both poverty and unemployment figures under Chávez have not seen significant improvement and that official corruption under his government continues to be rampant,[82] and point to the 1-2% drop in Venezuela's per-capita GDP early in Chávez's term, before the 2004 surge in oil prices.[75] According to The Boston Globe, critics say the government defines "informal workers, such as street vendors, as employed, and exclud[es] adults who are studying in missions from unemployment numbers." When the president of the Venezuelan National Statistics Institute released numbers in 2005 which showed that poverty had actually risen by more than 10 points under Chávez (to 53% in 2004, just after the strike), Chávez called for a new measure of poverty, defining a "social well-being index". Under this new definition, poverty registers at 40 percent.[6] The minimum wage in Venezuela in July 2006 covered only 65 percent of the cost of the basic food basket.[83]

The Heritage Foundation's, a conservative public policy analysis group, Index of Economic Freedom ranked Venezuela 152 out of 157 countries, among the 12 economies of the world labelled "repressed".[84]

The government and independent observers refute the charges of economic decline by pointing out that the renewed economic growth of the last two years has brought rapid reductions in poverty, especially when one considers the vast expansion of non-cash income represented by subsidized food distribution and other social programs.[85]

At the same time, The Economist opines that the administration's unwillingness to utilize private sector resources has resulted in a crumbling public infrastructure and a deficit in housing.[76] Critics cite the many public hospitals that lack basic medicine and hygienic supplies. They also question the motives behind the Bolivarian Missions' regular cash and in-kind payments to the millions of poor Venezuelans enrolling in their social programs. With many enrollees participating in more than one Mission simultaneously, receiving a steady and unearned income, critics worry that work ethic will be corrupted and enrollees will be predisposed to support and vote for Chávez. Supporters would respond that the opposition was not similarly worried about economic policy influencing political allegiances in the years when the current Venezuelan opposition promoted policies that re-distributed income upward, also notable was the opposition's 2006 presidential candidate Manual Rosales who promoted a policy which would have scrapped the social missions and paid a stipend of $250 - $450 per month directly to the poor, a rate exceeding the nations average wage, with no requirement for work, study or community involvement at all.

According to Venezuela's El Universal, one of the Chávez administration's outstanding weaknesses is the failure to meet its goals of construction of housing. Chávez promised to build 150,000 houses in 2006, but in the first half of the year, completed only 24 percent of that target, with 35,000 houses.[86]

Venezuela's non-traditional exports decreased by 20 percent in the first quarter of 2006. The drop was attributed to uncertain regulations on exports, markets lost because of politics, restrictions on purchasing US dollars, and bureaucratic delays affecting exporters, according to Francisco Mendoza, president of the Venezuelan Exporter's Association (AVEX). Mendoza said Venezuela is losing five large trade partners by withdrawing from the Group of Three (G-3) and the Andean Community of Nations (CAN), exchanging them for less valuable markets in the Common Market of the South (Mercosur). He says that only 10 percent of AVEX members have been granted certificates to purchase USD dollars needed for exports, and that overvaluation of the Venezuelan bolivar undermines the competitiveness of Venezuelan products abroad.[87]

According to The Boston Globe, the head of Mission Sucre, a program to provide free and ongoing education, says that “investments in education, health, and infrastructure will have a lasting effect on standard of living”. Data from a private Venezuelan research firm shows the incomes of the “poorest Venezuelans have risen because of subsidies and grants”. The Globe reports that the government has “subsidized markets in poor neighborhoods that sell staple foods up to 40 percent cheaper than elsewhere.” Low income residents are reportedly living better because of subsidies that boost household income, decrease food costs, and provide access to free schooling and basic medical care. Chavez’s “missions” offer education, aid to the needy, soup kitchens, and medical care.[6] There have been marked improvements in the infant mortality rate between 1998 and 2005.[88][89]"

we could do this all night!

Have you ever even met a venezuelan? spoken to one, I have spoken to many, but we all know how diverse Saskatoon is

[fifeboy]

ManifestDestiny ManifestDestiny:

we could do this all night!

Have you ever even met a venezuelan? spoken to one, I have spoken to many, but we all know how diverse Saskatoon is

I assume, because you speak of Saskatoon, you are talking to me! No, I have not met a Venezuelan. All the people I have met in Saskatoon, who are from South America, are from Chile, having fled another terror attack on a democratically elected government in 1973!

[ManifestDestiny]

fifeboy fifeboy:

ManifestDestiny ManifestDestiny:

we could do this all night!

Have you ever even met a venezuelan? spoken to one, I have spoken to many, but we all know how diverse Saskatoon is

I assume, because you speak of Saskatoon, you are talking to me! No, I have not met a Venezuelan. All the people I have met in Saskatoon, who are from South America, are from Chile, having fled another terror attack on a democratically elected government in 1973!

No I am not speaking to you, speaking to the wanna be gangster donny brasco.

[C.M. Burns]

ManifestDestiny ManifestDestiny:

I have never been there to see how people live, I have seen news reports WITH PICTURES on ABC, NBC and even the CBC, And they show people living in tin roofed shacks, dumping their feces and garbege into a stream that runs through the middle of their nieghborhood. And most of these people were darker skinned people, then I have read reports that show how many people live below the poverty line and what their background is.
So in my view Hugo Chavez is full of shit and has not changed a thing in venzuela, Just differnet people getting rich. But of course you like him cause he is Anti-American. end of story commie
GO fys

Well, props to MD for giving it a go.

ManifestDestiny ManifestDestiny:

C.M. Burns C.M. Burns:

ridenrain ridenrain:

Not to mention that he had enough money left over to help out Colombian FARC gorillas and ramp up their military.

Got any proof of that or are you just FOX-styling?

Why dont you prove somthing instead of asking everyone to prove their point and then when they do you dodge the whole point altogther.
Grow up!

Oh, too bad you spoiled it with this post. Since when is there something childish about asking for a little supporting evidence?
I've asked everyone? That's a bit of an exaggeration, don't you think. I asked 2 people to put up some proof.

ManifestDestiny ManifestDestiny:

Donny_Brasco Donny_Brasco:

Chavez raised the standards of living for most of his people.

Any links or evidence
Where is CM Burns asking for proof??????????
Of course not it fits his marxist anti american agenda

How sweet that you're just waiting around, night after night, for me to post a reply!
As much as I'd like to bash your moronic posts into the ground with some facts, well... I have a life.

BTW Do you even know what a Marxist is? And just how do I fit that criteria? Anyone with an ounce of understanding of political theory could easily tell from reading my posts that I'm a more of a libertarian-socialist! (with occasional forays into anarcho-syndicalism)

ManifestDestiny @ Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:19 pm ManifestDestiny @ Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:19 pm:

Have you ever even met a venezuelan? spoken to one, I have spoken to many

ManifestDestiny @ Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:05 pm ManifestDestiny @ Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:05 pm:

I have never been there to see how people live, I have seen news reports WITH PICTURES on ABC, NBC and even the CBC...

Funny, I guess that you *suddenly remembered*, 7 hours later, that you had spoken to many Venezuelans.

ManifestDestiny ManifestDestiny:

Donny_Brasco Donny_Brasco:

Chavez raised the standards of living for most of his people.

Any links or evidence
Where is CM Burns asking for proof??????????

Hey, Donny, let's see some proof!
What's that you say? You're too busy laughing?
Mind if I offer up some facts?
Great, thanks!

FARC & the famous laptop
The Colombian government claims that a laptop was found during a raind on the camp of FARC commander Raúl Reyes and that the files prove that Venezuela financed the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC. In actuality, they found three laptops, two external hard disks and three USB thumb drives.

Interpol found that files had not been tampered with subsequent to the date they are alleged to have been found.

Interpol did not make any finding as to the 'authenticity' of the data.

CLAIM: The Colombian government claims that Venezuela funded FARC to the tune of $300 million. This claim is based on ONE passage contained in a communication from Raúl Reyes to the FARC secretariat:

“With relation to the 300, which from now on we will call 'dossier,' efforts are now going forward at the instructions of the boss to the cripple which I will explain in a separate note”

FACT: There is absolutely zero indication, in any of the documents, of what '300' means. It could have been a code name for a person or a project, it could have referred to 300 hostages, it could have referred to an special group of FARC rebels. Nobody knows except the sender and recipient. Colombia's claim is pure fiction.


CLAIM: Hugo Chavez was providing material support to the FARC. The person referred in the FARC documents under the code name “Angel” is Hugo Chavez.

FACT: The documents reference both “Angel” and “Chavez”—sometimes in the same paragraph. It appears that the documents are referring to two different people.


CLAIM: FARC was preparing to build a dirty bomb.

FACT: This claim was publicly dismissed by the U.S. government.


The Colombian government claims that a photo found in the laptops showed a meeting between FARC leaders and an Ecuadorian cabinet official were also proved to be false.

In fact, independent analyses of the documents indicate that the Colombian government has substantially exaggerated their contents, perhaps for political purposes


CLAIM: Chavez Shuts Down TV Stations

HEADLINE: Thousands Protest Closing of Anti-Chavez TV Station in Venezuela - FOX News
"Chavez had refused to renew RCTV's broadcast license, accusing it of "subversive" activities and of backing a 2002 coup against him."

HEADLINE: Venezuelans Protest As TV Station Shuts - washingpost.com
"Chavez had refused to renew RCTV's broadcast license, accusing it of "subversive" activities and of backing a 2002 coup against him."

They're both using the same AP reporter.

HEADLINE: Second Venezuela TV is under fire - BBC
"Venezuela's government has accused a TV station of inciting a murder attempt on President Hugo Chavez, hours after taking another network off the air."

FACT: "At a press conference in the Attorney General's office, Communications Minister William Lara showed a video of CNN coverage in which an image of Hugo Chavez appears next to the image of an Al Qaeda leader who was assassinated"

"Information Minister Willian Lara accused the private Globovision TV channel of encouraging an attempt on Chavez's life by broadcasting the chorus of a salsa tune _ "Have faith, this doesn't end here" _ along with footage of the 1981 assassination attempt against Pope John Paul II in St. Peter's Square."

FACT: RCTV received a public broadcasting concession two decades ago which expired on May 27th, 2007. The administration of President Hugo Chávez did not renew the license because RCTV had participated in the April 2002 coup against Chávez by broadcasting false information and concealing key events during the coup, and because the company had violated the Law on Social Responsibility in Radio and Television hundreds of times, according to a regulatory body.

FACT: RCTV was not shut down. RCTV is available on cable and satellite and has become the most watched channel in Venezuela (despite being on cable).Only 30% of houses have cable in Venezuela but the total amount that view RCTV is higher than all viewers of TVES, Venevision, and all other channels. In Caracas and in Valencia twice as many people view RCTV than Venevision.

"Despite claims that freedom of speech is not respected by the Government, Globovision and other channels (among them RCTV) have been able to broadcast news and comments that, by international standards, could be considered hostile to a Government. Strong negative opinions regarding Chávez and the Government are aired on a daily basis in Globovision. The Washington Post, in an article covering the Chávez government's refusal to renew the license of Radio Caracas Televisión (RCTV), reported that "[f]ree expression is exercised in Venezuela. Another influential television station, Globovision, lambastes the Chávez government frequently ... "[3] Globovision is able to broadcast outside of Venezuela, and does so through satellite television. The channel can currently be seen in most Latin American countries as a 24-hour news channel. Nevertheless, Globovision has been the target of violent assaults to their equipment and journalists at various pro-government marches and protests.[citation needed] Additionally, microwave equipment, which allows for live transmissions, has been seized by the Government in the past.[4]"

The microwave equipment was seized because Globovision did not have permits for the frequencies being used.

FACT: Globovision has not been shut down. It broadcasts over-the-air in Caracas, Carabobo, and Zulia on UHF channel 33. Globovisión is seen in the rest of Venezuela on cable or satellite (Globovisión has an alliance with DirecTV, where it can be seen on channel 110) and worldwide from their website.

Toro Toro:

There is evidence to suggest that the poor have not benefited under Chavez any more than one would expect with oil at $135.

$1:

Neither official statistics nor independent estimates show any evidence that Chávez has reoriented state priorities to benefit the poor. Most health and human development indicators have shown no significant improvement beyond that which is normal in the midst of an oil boom. Indeed, some have deteriorated worryingly, and official estimates indicate that income inequality has increased. The "Chávez is good for the poor" hypothesis is inconsistent with the facts.

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20080301f ... ution.html

Yes, the foreign affairs article...

$1:

Foreign Affairs recently published a compendium of allegations against the government of Venezuela ("An Empty Revolution: The Unfulfilled Promises of Hugo Chávez," Foreign Affairs, March/April 2008 ) by economist Francisco Rodriguez. The article argues that “a close look at the evidence reveals just how much Chávez's 'revolution' has hurt Venezuela's economy -- and that the poor are hurting most of all.” As Rodriguez notes, this is contrary to widespread belief.

In the five years since the government of President Hugo Chavez Frias got control over the country's national oil industry:

• Real (inflation-adjusted) GDP has grown by more than 87 percent, with only a small part of this growth being in oil.
• The poverty rate has been cut in half,
• Unemployment has been cut by more than half.
• The economy has created jobs at a rate nearly three times that of the United States
  during its most recent economic expansion.
• Health care for the poor has been vastly expanded,
• The number of primary care physicians in the public sector increasing from 1,628 in 1998 to 19,571 (by early 2007).
• About 40 percent of the population has gotten access to subsidized food.
• Access to education, especially higher education, has also been greatly expanded for poor families.
• Real (inflationadjusted) social spending per person has increased by more than 300 percent.1

Mark Weisbrot, CEPR
The Center for Economic Policy Research [CEPR] was co-founded by economists Dean Baker and Mark Weisbrot. Our Advisory Board of Economists includes Nobel Laureate economists Robert Solow and Joseph Stiglitz; Richard Freeman, Professor of Economics at Harvard University; and Eileen Appelbaum, Professor and Director of the Center for Women and Work at Rutgers University.

sources:
http://www.cepr.net/documents/publicati ... 008_03.pdf
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/3386
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globovisi%C3%B3n
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/3511
http://www.cepr.net/documents/publicati ... 008_03.pdf

[C.M. Burns]

The reason RCTV is the number one channel in Venezuela!

[C.M. Burns]

Toro Toro:

There is evidence to suggest that the poor have not benefited under Chavez any more than one would expect with oil at $135.

There is evidence to suggest that the poor have not benefited under HARPER any more than one would expect with oil at $135.

There. Fixed that for ya!

[C.M. Burns]

ManifestDestiny ManifestDestiny:

$1:

"The poor of Venezuela are living much better lately and have increased their purchasing power..."

Chavez is a real bastard!
What kind of a scumbag would help the poor live better!
And helping them to increase their purchasing power so they can make their own financial decisions like adults? Outrageous!!!

MD, did you even bother to read the wiki article or do you just not understand the words?

Sorry, MD,I can't hang around waiting for your next post. I have to head down to the CBC to plan Canada's Marxist (not Leninist but slightly Trotskyite) revolution!

[fifeboy]

C.M. Burns C.M. Burns:

ManifestDestiny ManifestDestiny:

$1:

"The poor of Venezuela are living much better lately and have increased their purchasing power..."

Chavez is a real bastard!
What kind of a scumbag would help the poor live better!
And helping them to increase their purchasing power so they can make their own financial decisions like adults? Outrageous!!!

MD, did you even bother to read the wiki article or do you just not understand the words?

Sorry, MD,I can't hang around waiting for your next post. I have to head down to the CBC to plan Canada's Marxist (not Leninist but slightly Trotskyite) revolution!

I don't think Maniacal Dysentery is going to like what you said.

[C.M. Burns]

fifeboy fifeboy:

I don't think Maniacal Dysentery is going to like what you said.

Which part won't he like? The part with all the facts?
Well, if he reads the words and understands most of them I'll be happy as a pig in shit - koz reeding am importint!

[fifeboy]

C.M. Burns C.M. Burns:

Well, if he reads the words and understands most of them I'll be happy as a pig in shit -

C.M. Burns C.M. Burns:

koz reeding am importint!

[C.M. Burns]