[Choban]

DerbyX DerbyX:

commanderkai commanderkai:

Derby did you just fucking try to compare what the Soviets did to what the Americans did? Holy shit. Just wow.

"1) We are at fault for much of that and we are simply bringing the same shit kicking and violence you just mentioned. We just have alot more resources to build things. The soviets also tried building infrastructure, schools, hospitals, whatever but they had far far less resources and nothing but international condemnation all the while fighting an enemy trained and supplied by the US."

You must be honestly kidding.

I think you need to learn more about the truth. The fact is that unlike us the soviets/russia has had a long history of aid with Afghanistan. They were helping them build schools and infrastructure back in the 50s and only sent in troops after that regions gov't was on the verge of collapsing due to internal strife and only after being repeatedly begged to do so. They certainly weren't much worse then the US in Vietnam.

The US saw this as a great chance to give the USSR its own Vietnam and thats exactly what happened. The US wasn't concerned with anything but drawing the USSR into a long and bloody conflict. They cared nothing for the people hurt in the process and used propaganda to play up the whole jihad angle, the very angle we are now fighting against.

$1:

Like many other anti-communist movements at that time, the rebels quickly garnered support from the United States. As stated by the former director of the CIA and current Secretary of Defense, Robert Gates, in his memoirs From the Shadows, the American intelligence services began to aid the rebel factions in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet deployment. On July 3, 1978, US President Jimmy Carter signed an executive order authorizing the CIA to conduct covert propaganda operations against the communist regime.

Carter advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski stated "According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the mujahideen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise." Brzezinski himself played a fundamental role in crafting U.S. policy, which, unbeknownst even to the mujahideen, was part of a larger strategy "to induce a Soviet military intervention." In a 1998 interview with Le Nouvel Observateur, Brzezinski recalled:

We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would...That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Soviets into the Afghan trap...The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the Soviet Union its Vietnam War.

Much of the conflict was a result of what the tribesman and muslim populace saw as a threat to their traditional and religious way of life when efforts to introduce modern reforms were initiated back in the mid 70s.

Does that sound familiar?

The fact is that because the west was fighting the east in a massive childish global game they decided to help anybody against the soviets. Enemy of my enemy is my friend. They knew exactly what type of people they were helping but didn't care and when the soviets were driven out the US promptly dropped them like a hot potatoe and took no responsibility for the massive arms they had given what was essentially a whole slew of loosely banded warring factions and the rest is history.

We were the architects of much of the problems so yeah, my statement rings pretty true.

Another Russian mandate was to prevent the smuggling of Heroin and Marijuana into the USSR from Afghanistan.

[Scape]

DerbyX DerbyX:

We are ignoring the very acts we are trying to stop and all because fighing the taliban and "the war on terror" is being fed to us as more important.

Ignoring? I don't think so. I think we are painfully aware of it. The problem here is in priorities. These are heinous acts that are being committed but at no time do you see any command order being issued for our forces to engage in such acts or to promote them. Yes, this is a passive form of support but only because there are bigger fires to put out. Sadly, someone being raped and or being tortured by these same thugs who we are calling Afgan authorities is not as important as say rounding up of the thousands of recently free Taliban prisoners and reestablishing control over the villages that thousands are fleeing from.

DerbyX DerbyX:

Between, Streakers article that he recently posted and these reports of us being told to simply look the other way when the troops we trained, armed, and equiped rape boys how are we any different?

We don't send our troops to help thugs rape. We train them to help themselves but old habits will die hard, this will not be something that is resolved overnight.

The only other solution besides total withdrawal and defeat would be martial law that we impose directly and that is not something we can do as that will play directly into the hands of the enemy. There has been a great deal of slack given to keep this rabble of warlords working together and if we tighten up by cracking down we risk losing to many of them and thus even more authority. We would end up holding the bag as it where more so then we are already and that is counter productive. However, public humiliation is not out of the question. I would encourage that but not to the point that is incites anarchy.

Eventually we want to be in a position to weed out such undesirables by rewarding the ones that make the situation better for the Afghani people and the ones that don't end up on the outside looking in and shamed. We can not even begin that process without starting with the people that are already in power in Afghanistan and right now they are the people in one of the poorest countries in the world so to expect them to be saints is unrealistic.

It is a fact that soldiers we are training and supporting are raping boys and we have not hear a peep from the current government. So what would you have them say and do now considering the risk of shattering this fragile coalition is already high to begin with?

[DerbyX]

The problem is that by willingly ignoring the corruption we support we are accomplises in it.

In addition, I'm not so certain we aren't a deeper part of it.

http://wikileaks.org/wiki/How_to_train_ ... dor_to_you

Although a world away it shows that we are responsible for setting up the very conditions we say we abhor and that we use to legitamize our invasion. What we really mean is we hate dictatros we can't control and not the actual dictators themselves.

I disagree completely with your assesment we should ignore our sides corruption because we don't want to make waves when we still need to defeat the taliban because all that does is simply make absolutely certain we are installing a gov't as bad as the one we deposed.

Our troops aren't raping boys? Thats right they aren't but then again they invaded a foreign country and the taliban didn't. Who is right and wrong is a matter of perspective.

We will never be in a position to do what you think. I don't believe we will ever be able to eliminate the taliban to a level that doesn't require us to continue a large military presence and even if we did then what? We go after the opium lords (whom we supported and who are supported by the "legit" gov't)? Then go after to boy rapers? The tribesman with cultural traditions that our society finds offensive? The violence against the USSR was more then anything else a rebellion against the attempt to introduce modern society with modern thinking into a society clinging to the old ways and we used that as the focal point against them.

Now thats biting us in the ass and once we start doing the same thing we will see the same oposition. They will go from rioting about the removal of foreign troops over matters of cartoons to violence when we start telling them that we are going to change all their religious values because its offensive.

You seem to think that the taliban were the bastards causing all this when in truth they were mearly the products of it and as we overlook our side doing the same thing and having the same corruption we aren't ever changing anything.

Its not going to happen over night and it won't ever happen unless they want to but more important to tham is their religious values and we can't change that.

What you want for them is admirable but the method you are currently supporting isn't going to work and has almost never worked in the history of humnaity.

[Scape]

DerbyX DerbyX:

The problem is that by willingly ignoring the corruption we support we are accomplises in it.

Not true. Ever try to clean out a closet of memorabilia? Every photo and snip it you pull out makes you want to stop what your doing and treasure the moment but you don't because you are cleaning. Same thing here, we would love to go after every jay walker to rapist and everything in between and treat crime and corruption just like Jesus would treat sin as all sins are equal but we can't. Especially when the locals are the ones who have to learn how to do it for themselves. We are not there as police, we are there as a military force to give shelter and time for the civil power to handle it's own affairs.

DerbyX DerbyX:

Although a world away it shows that we are responsible for setting up the very conditions we say we abhor and that we use to legitamize our invasion. What we really mean is we hate dictatros we can't control and not the actual dictators themselves.

A jaded opinion of a juvenile synopsis. Rome wasn't built in a day, why is this different? We are asking them to go from a crawl to a sprint in terms of political development. The decentralized tribal authorities set up in East Africa has shown great promise in taking root with domestic authority. Makes it more local and accountable while still being more approachable to the people who use it. Perhaps this should be more the focus but we won't get anywhere if we pick up sticks and leave.

DerbyX DerbyX:

You seem to think that the taliban were the bastards causing all this when in truth they were mearly the products of it and as we overlook our side doing the same thing and having the same corruption we aren't ever changing anything.

I made no such assertion. However, if a dog is rabid I do not attempt to reason with it I shoot the basturd.

DerbyX DerbyX:

What you want for them is admirable but the method you are currently supporting isn't going to work and has almost never worked in the history of humnaity.

Really? Rome did wonders for England even though they did not hold it. In any event it isn't just us there it's NATO and the UN. If we are we to turn our backs on them what then would stop a rout?

[DerbyX]

Scape Scape:

Not true. Ever try to clean out a closet of memorabilia? Every photo and snip it you pull out makes you want to stop what your doing and treasure the moment but you don't because you are cleaning. Same thing here, we would love to go after every jay walker to rapist and everything in between and treat crime and corruption just like Jesus would treat sin as all sins are equal but we can't. Especially when the locals are the ones who have to learn how to do it for themselves. We are not there as police, we are there as a military force to give shelter and time for the civil power to handle it's own affairs.

Thats just wrong. We either start doing it correct fromthe start or we don't do it at all. You were the one posting about all the corrupt drug connections surrounding the current regime and know we are getting reports of the very security forces and troops we are training committing horrific acts and that we are willingly turning a blind eye to it. Cleaning your closet out by rinsing it with sewage water doesn't do dick.

Scape Scape:

A jaded opinion of a juvenile synopsis. Rome wasn't built in a day, why is this different? We are asking them to go from a crawl to a sprint in terms of political development. The decentralized tribal authorities set up in East Africa has shown great promise in taking root with domestic authority. Makes it more local and accountable while still being more approachable to the people who use it. Perhaps this should be more the focus but we won't get anywhere if we pick up sticks and leave.

Truth hurts? To bad. Thats quite similiar to what people said about your juvwnile and jaded opinion concerning the ongoing drug state we created. What we need to do is agree that all sides belong at the bargaining table and that we are obligated to agree to their bargaining conditions to achieve this. We also need to understand that we don't know whats best for them and stop acting like we do.

Scape Scape:

I made no such assertion. However, if a dog is rabid I do not attempt to reason with it I shoot the basturd.

Yet you made the assumption the taliban are rapid and that even though we know everybody else is rapid we are willingly ignoring them so we can focus on a single dog.

Calling the taliban rapid dogs that deserve execution just means you are supporting my belief that we think we know whats best for them. Time and again karzai and the afghan people themselves have said that they want the taliban to have a role in the future of afghanistan yet you think we should ignore that and hunt them down like dogs. I'm trying not to be insulting but I can't help thinking that your belief is exactly the reason why we won't win over there.

Scape Scape:

Really? Rome did wonders for England even though they did not hold it. In any event it isn't just us there it's NATO and the UN. If we are we to turn our backs on them what then would stop a rout?

Rome? Are you serious? Are you suggesting we destroy whatever culture we find, rename every settlement and forcibly control the entire region for the next 300 years or so? Khadahar becomes Candinium?

Thats a bad analogy and not once are you truly addressing the fact that we simply have not got the right to do anything you think we do.

[saturn_656]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Thats a bad analogy and not once are you truly addressing the fact that we simply have not got the right to do anything you think we do.

One day you will understand that in the arena of nations, how many "rights" you have is directly related to how much power you and your buddies wield.

We have the "right" to do this because there is no other or group of others powerful enough to counter us. In other words, who is going to stop us Derby? You?

International Relations 101.

[DerbyX]

saturn_656 saturn_656:

DerbyX DerbyX:

Thats a bad analogy and not once are you truly addressing the fact that we simply have not got the right to do anything you think we do.

One day you will understand that in the arena of nations, how many "rights" you have is directly related to how much power you and your buddies wield.

We have the "right" to do this because there is no other or group of others powerful enough to counter us. In other words, who is going to stop us Derby? You?

International Relations 101.

Thats my point. Who polices us?

Rights start be setting examples, good ones. They start by respecting the rights of others even if they use those rights to make bad descions. We can't establish rights by ignoring them when they are convenient.

In this case the larger and more powerful group is us.

[Scape]

DerbyX DerbyX:

We either start doing it correct fromthe start or we don't do it at all. Cleaning your closet out by rinsing it with sewage water doesn't do dick.

We don't have that as an option to sit on our hands. This should not come as a revelation but the poverty and corruption that is driving violence to begin with is why we are there. You can not then say that when we are hip deep in the muck that we should not be dirty. This isn't a girl guide meeting here the reason we are reacting is because of the events that led to 911. Prove to me that not doing anything at all is going to stem the tide that is readily apparent. Left to the devices of the Taliban they would turn the people against us if only to scapegoat their own sins. The wealth gap is so enormous between us and them its ridiculous to think they would do otherwise. This isn't some Somalian tribe, this is the back yard of the people who attacked the US directly. Such actions will not go unanswered.

DerbyX DerbyX:

We also need to understand that we don't know whats best for them and stop acting like we do.

I would love to see womens rights take root and a just and civil society to emerge on its own as a byproduct of our UN mandate. That is not the reason we are there. We are there to stabilize a volatile situation for spiraling out of control and taking down fragile neighbor states in the ensuing chaos. You can guarantee that if a nuclear armed Pakistan falls further to the forces of anarchy it will not be in anyone's best interest.

DerbyX DerbyX:

Scape Scape:

I made no such assertion. However, if a dog is rabid I do not attempt to reason with it I shoot the basturd.

Yet you made the assumption the taliban are rapid and that even though we know everybody else is rapid we are willingly ignoring them so we can focus on a single dog.

Calling the taliban rapid dogs that deserve execution just means you are supporting my belief that we think we know whats best for them. Time and again karzai and the afghan people themselves have said that they want the taliban to have a role in the future of afghanistan yet you think we should ignore that and hunt them down like dogs. I'm trying not to be insulting but I can't help thinking that your belief is exactly the reason why we won't win over there.

I didn't say they are quick dogs, they are diseased dogs that are choosing a path of violence. You can not deny the heinous nature of the Taliban with their suicide attacks and IUDs. How can a civil society hope to succeed in such an atmosphere of fear? These thugs represent the worst of humanity and should be treated no different then a dog gone rabid until such time that they realize such actions will not be tolerated. It is only then that meaningful diplomacy can begin, not before.

DerbyX DerbyX:

Are you suggesting we destroy whatever culture we find, rename every settlement and forcibly control the entire region for the next 300 years or so? Khadahar becomes Candinium?

No. Calm down. We have every right to survive and the Taliban are simply a symptom of a much larger disease that will kill us if left unattended. It is a natural byproduct of the advancement civilization, to every action a reaction and as we advance others will grow resentful and covet. You must come to terms with the fact that there are people out there that mean us great harm and must be dealt with. I don't want to make an Afganada, I just want them better off so that they are not driven to madness by their dire straits. That is not going to happen by itself or overnight.

[DerbyX]

Scape Scape:

We don't have that as an option to sit on our hands. This should not come as a revelation but the poverty and corruption that is driving violence to begin with is why we are there. You can not then say that when we are hip deep in the muck that we should not be dirty. This isn't a girl guide meeting here the reason we are reacting is because of the events that led to 911. Prove to me that not doing anything at all is going to stem the tide that is readily apparent. Left to the devices of the Taliban they would turn the people against us if only to scapegoat their own sins. The wealth gap is so enormous between us and them its ridiculous to think they would do otherwise. This isn't some Somalian tribe, this is the back yard of the people who attacked the US directly. Such actions will not go unanswered.

No it isn't. While OBL may have been hiding out there he wasn't part of the taliban nor did he have any official sanction to acts as such. In fact I think they were well pissed off he did what he did and included them in it because prior to that the taliban were only concerned with their own country living a pure muslim life.

You keep thinking that because I oppose the current war of occupatuion that I propose not doing anything. Thats incorrect. While I do favour a MYOB approach in life and politics I do favour help and intervention under proper circumstances. Deciding at a moments notice that Canada will save these people from themselves is dishonest and questionable due to the fact we cared nothing for them until we got the chance to send troops abroad into a real non-peacekeeping conflict. We certainly didn't give a toss when we were getting reports about the very conditions we know fight were happening daily.

BTW, Again you refer to the disparity of wealth. I told you I agree with you but we will not address that through military intervention.

Consider the new pipeline. Think the average afghani will see that money? If the best thing possible for them would be to tell the opium lords that we will leave them to grow their crop in peace provided that they provide jobs, wages, and security would you support it?

Scape Scape:

I would love to see womens rights take root and a just and civil society to emerge on its own as a byproduct of our UN mandate. That is not the reason we are there. We are there to stabilize a volatile situation for spiraling out of control and taking down fragile neighbor states in the ensuing chaos. You can guarantee that if a nuclear armed Pakistan falls further to the forces of anarchy it will not be in anyone's best interest.

Are you joking? Taking down neighbouring states? Who's fault is that? Pakistan is being destabilized by our presence. Witness the fact that militants fled into their country and recruit from that country and now Karzai, who split from the Taliban because he wanted ties to India instead, is now threatening them.

Of course this is a point of disagreement for us. I don't believe any of our actions will have the effect you seem to think it will.

Scape Scape:

I didn't say they are quick dogs, they are diseased dogs that are choosing a path of violence. You can not deny the heinous nature of the Taliban with their suicide attacks and IUDs. How can a civil society hope to succeed in such an atmosphere of fear? These thugs represent the worst of humanity and should be treated no different then a dog gone rabid until such time that they realize such actions will not be tolerated. It is only then that meaningful diplomacy can begin, not before.

I get it. Rapid instead of rabid. You are quick yourself. Regardless I don't deny the heinous nature of the taliban. Its the same nature as the mujahadeen whom we supported and the same nature as the people we have trained. They choose the path of violence because it was choosen for them. So did we throughout history only we had centuries to change that and not a few years. They are violent but like us they need to work through it at their pace and not have some holier then thou country decide for them at gun point.

Meaningful diplomacy is getting them to realize this without violence. We failed and don't tell me that diplomacy failed because it was never tried.

Scape Scape:

No. Calm down. We have every right to survive and the Taliban are simply a symptom of a much larger disease that will kill us if left unattended. It is a natural byproduct of the advancement civilization, to every action a reaction and as we advance others will grow resentful and covet. You must come to terms with the fact that there are people out there that mean us great harm and must be dealt with. I don't want to make an Afganada, I just want them better off so that they are not driven to madness by their dire straits. That is not going to happen by itself or overnight.

You quoted who much Rome did for England. I simply provided that history in context. You can't point to the benefits of roman society on english development
while ignoring the actual history that happened.

I want them to be better off to and it won't happen over night. It didn't happen for us over night yet we expect them to have done it in a few years. Thats actually a point. The taliban arose out of war and chaos and yet we think they should accomplish in a few years what took us centuries.

To put it bluntly we are a full grown adult shaking a child and punishing it because it isn't toliet trained by its first year of age.

All this feel good "we are helping them" persona we have adopted is in contrast to the fact we are ignoring a far worse crisis in Darfur.

To me our presence in Afghanistan isn't as much about "helping them" as it is other less then altruistic reasons.

[Thanos]

Something that's being forgotten is that the Taliban and their Al-Qaeda sidekicks were, for the most part, not even native Afghans. The Taliban are mostly Pakistani who are trained and brainwashed in the madrassas on the Pakistan side of the border. The Al Qaeda types were/are mostly Arabs, Jordanians, and Egyptians. As such any claim that the Taliban foreigners ever comprised a proper representative face for Afghanistan cannot be taken seriously. It's like saying that Colonel Kurtz had some kind of an internationally recognized right to take his boats, guns and mercenaries upriver and carve out his own little psycho empire in the heart of the dark jungle.

The new bosses in Afghanistan might be kind of shitty themselves, but that's to be expected from an already brutal tribal society that's been devastated by first the illegal Soviet invasion and then by their own civil war that followed the Soviet expulsion. At no stage can it be taken seriously that the whack-jobs in the Taliban represent either a legitimate government alternative or a reasonable cultural option on which an entire society should be governed. Saying such things means that the North Korean option should be spread elsewhere around the world because even thought they're militaristic, xenophobic, and genocidal creeps that use mass starvation to keep their own people in line they at least provide stability and a recognizable order. I had hoped that the "made the trains run on time" sort of argument had been laid to rest among reasonable people after the Nuremburg Trials among reasonable people but I may have been wrong.

[Scape]

Thanos Thanos:

Something that's being forgotten is that the Taliban and their Al-Qaeda sidekicks were, for the most part, not even native Afghans. At no stage can it be taken seriously that the whack-jobs in the Taliban represent either a legitimate government alternative or a reasonable cultural option on which an entire society should be governed.

DerbyX DerbyX:

While OBL may have been hiding out there he wasn't part of the taliban nor did he have any official sanction to acts as such.

The issue of religious intent is a red herring. Both are fighting the same war on different fronts and it is class warfare we are talking about on a global scale. We're rich and they are poor.

DerbyX DerbyX:

While I do favour a MYOB approach in life and politics I do favour help and intervention under proper circumstances. ...Again you refer to the disparity of wealth. I told you I agree with you but we will not address that through military intervention.

How do you negotiate at gunpoint? What's that saying only a fool brings a knife to a gunfight? You want to walk in with what, good intentions? You need to understand the fundamentals of momentum. There will come a time where we can do that but now is not that time. Do you seriously believe if we pull up stakes like the US did in Saigon that there won't be serious repercussions? Remember the boat people and the Cambodian killing fields? That's going to be trivial compared to when we spawn an Iranian Theocratic superstate with nuclear weapons that spreads from the Golan Heights to the Great Wall of China and controls the world oil supply.

DerbyX DerbyX:

If the best thing possible for them would be to tell the opium lords that we will leave them to grow their crop in peace provided that they provide jobs, wages, and security would you support it?

If the Afganins determined that was their best option then yes.

DerbyX DerbyX:

Meaningful diplomacy is getting them to realize this without violence. We failed and don't tell me that diplomacy failed because it was never tried.

Karzi would beg to differ. Are you saying that if the Taliban were to cease hostilities they would not be offered terms?

DerbyX DerbyX:

I want them to be better off to and it won't happen over night. It didn't happen for us over night yet we expect them to have done it in a few years.

The royal we I assume your using here as I most certainly do not. This will take generations.

[Johnny_Utah]

When the Liberals were in power the issue of Canada Cutting & Running from Afghanistan wasn't brought up, the minute they were out of power it's been brought up over and over because all they care about is regaining power..

The Liberals are so desperate to regain power they are willing to make the sacrifices by the Canadian Military in Afghanistan in vain, while having the NDP and Taliban Mouthpiece Jack Layton their Lapdogs helping push forward Canada's Cut & Run..

Then there's the Isolationists who don't consider the War in Afghanistan or Terrorism a Canadian problem because it's not in their backyard, they forget the reason Canada and NATO are there was because of 9/11 as the attacks were planned and plotted when the Taliban were in power harboring Al Qaeda and Bin Laden, while executing women for simply being women among other crimes against humanity..

Of course the main reason Liberals, NDP, Taliban Mouthpiece Jack Layton and the Isolationists will never admit why they are against the War in Afghanistan is they consider it Bush's War which gives them a platform for their Anti-American Rants & Raves they've never had before..

[Scape]

Pakistan's Gun Market

[herbie]

The issue of "cutting and running" is an entirely moronic cliche. Did the USA "cut & run" in VietNam? No, it took years and massive casualties for the public to see the reality of that one, win every battle and still get nowhere.
Here's the cold hard reality:
- As someone mentioned we've only had 80 idd deaths in 7 years. The deaths aren't relevant, the SEVEN YEARS is. And committed to 3 more, being begged to increase even that time. The Taliban were routed in a few months, it's up to the people of Afghanistan to secure their own state now.
- Seven years in, and we have only lukewarm commitment from our NATO allies. That's no ringing endorsement for what we're doing.
- We're stuck in a war of containment, a la Korea-VietNam. There's no way of pulling off the total elimination of the Taliban, not without widening the scope of the war. Regrouping in Pakistan, arms from Iran and it would be total madness to attack either of them, same as it would have been madness to listen to McArthur and nuke China.
- The recent jailbreak and Taliban assualts around Kandahar? Tet offensive ring any bells? Someone grossly underestimated their support and grossly overestimated ours. This should also ring a bell that these 'embedded' quasi-journalists are not delivering actualities to us, just what the gov't wants us to hear. Now shown as lies!

We're stuck in something we can't "win" and can't get out of, seven years down the road, and refusing to even negotiate some political stalemate.
How stupid is that?

[djakeydd]

Here is what we are in for, tag along the coat tails of a regime of lawlessness and total war and a nation of fools, the majority of whom think the coming election will actually make a difference - good times indeed in the forecast..

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article5160.html