[andyt]

I don't know the risk of all uses of animals as entertainment. To me the risk in chuckwagon racing is too high. You don't hear of horses having to be put down this often in bronc riding, say, so that risk is probably acceptable. Whatever doesn't kill them or seems like real torture of them, go for it. Ie a bit of stress isn't the end of the world.

[DrCaleb]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

At the very best, it's human manipulation and perversion of the animals natural reflexes for your own selfish enjoyment. Like putting peanut butter on your balls and saying "but Rover loves peanut butter!"

You keep implying that I somehow like chuckwagon races when I've made no such statements, and that somehow that implies that I engage in bestiality.

It's no wonder you never win debates with me, using those tactics.

[2Cdo]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

At the very best, it's human manipulation and perversion of the animals natural reflexes for your own selfish enjoyment. Like putting peanut butter on your balls and saying "but Rover loves peanut butter!"

You keep implying that I somehow like chuckwagon races when I've made no such statements, and that somehow that implies that I engage in bestiality.

It's no wonder you never win debates with anyone, using those tactics.

One word needed fixing.

[Tyler_1]

I'm mostly annoyed with the horse mating rituals. I heard that my buddy Thor still is only beside the girls because he has to feel like he owns the place first or something so the girls won't beat him up. I don't know why it's taking so long he is outstanding in any field.

[BeaverFever]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

At the very best, it's human manipulation and perversion of the animals natural reflexes for your own selfish enjoyment. Like putting peanut butter on your balls and saying "but Rover loves peanut butter!"

You keep implying that I somehow like chuckwagon races when I've made no such statements, and that somehow that implies that I engage in bestiality.

It's no wonder you never win debates with me, using those tactics.

Whether you like races or not, you're here arguing in their favour.

And I never accused YOU of putting peanut butter on your balls...have a sense of humour will you?

I'm not sure what I've really ever debated with you anyways, let alone keep score.

[DrCaleb]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

At the very best, it's human manipulation and perversion of the animals natural reflexes for your own selfish enjoyment. Like putting peanut butter on your balls and saying "but Rover loves peanut butter!"

You keep implying that I somehow like chuckwagon races when I've made no such statements, and that somehow that implies that I engage in bestiality.

It's no wonder you never win debates with me, using those tactics.

Whether you like races or not, you're here arguing in their favour.

Then you clearly haven't been understanding my argument. You said that horses do not crave celebrity, that they are forced into actions against their nature. My argument is that racing, crowds, and competition are very much in their nature; something you'd know if you had been brought up around horses like I had. Horses are like the biggest puppy you've ever had, they love to please and they love to show off.

I made no comment as to what I think of chuckwagon racing, or the Calgary Stampede in general.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

And I never accused YOU of putting peanut butter on your balls...have a sense of humour will you?

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Like putting peanut butter on your balls and saying "but Rover loves peanut butter!"

That's pretty much a 'gimme'. And I'd be surprised if anyone took me seriously.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

I'm not sure what I've really ever debated with you anyways, let alone keep score.

A few things, here and there. I keep 'score', because those are the times I learn the most, and I am happiest when I am learning.

[BartSimpson]

andyt andyt:

I don't know the risk of all uses of animals as entertainment.

I'm sure the moslems run a risk when they're using goats for entertainment. When they goose a goat they might get kicked in the jimmies!

[BeaverFever]

$1:

Then you clearly haven't been understanding my argument. You said that horses do not crave celebrity, that they are forced into actions against their nature. My argument is that racing, crowds, and competition are very much in their nature;

Time machine time: The comment I made the drew you into this thread was:

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

You can't justify needless pain and suffering and any preceding kind treatment won't cancel it out. Would you agree to such a gruesome fate so long as you got pampered before hand?

Also, animals have no concept of "superstardom" ....it means nothing to them. You think they crave celebrity? You think they worry whether they have it as good or better than other animals?

Slavery is wrong even when the Master is kind; similarly animal suffering for the sake of entertainment is also wrong even when they're otherwise well treated.

To which you replied:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

I can tell you've never worked with horses. Certain breeds live to serve. Certain breeds are happiest when pulling a heavily loaded wagon, or a huge stump out of the ground, or jumping fences and ponds, or racing around a track. They get excited when you harness them up and hook them to heavy loads, or put on their riding saddle.

And being an animal that lives in groups, they crave attention. That's one of the ways to 'break' a horse, it to starve it of attention so that it craves it from humans. The roar of thousands in a stadium feeds that desire; they most certainly understand 'superstardom'.

I'm not saying that mistreating animals isn't wrong, I'm saying these animals aren't mistreated. They are doing what they love to do, and unfortunate accidents happen. The problem is that all these injuries are manageable - for any other animal. But for horses, they have a temperament that won't allow them to stand still or lie down for long periods and let the injury heal. So they must be euthanized rather than suffer a slow death because of their nature.

So your first post actually seems to defend racing (see bold text). As does your follow up post:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

There are many horses at the stampede this week who will not suffer and die, but enjoy the thrill of the races as much as the crowd, and then go home safely. Accidents happen.

And my post (which you had actually quoted) never claimed that horses don't love to run or pull things and I never argued that point at all.

In fact, my first reply to you on this forum I said

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

They didn't choose to race wagons and even if they could, any supposed joy they might get from it doesn't automatically absolve you from causing the suffering and grisly death.

$1:

Like putting peanut butter on your balls and saying "but Rover loves peanut butter!"

It's the general expression 'you', not you personally.

[DrCaleb]

Soooooo . .what's your point?

[stratos]

[BeaverFever]

Point continues to be: Chuck wagon races = bad

[2Cdo]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Point continues to be: Chuck wagon races = bad

In your view. Another view would be Chuck wagon races = $$$$$

[DrCaleb]

2Cdo 2Cdo:

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Point continues to be: Chuck wagon races = bad

In your view. Another view would be Chuck wagon races = $$$$$

Another would be; not all horse racing is bad. Some is riskier than others, but then again the daily commute is also riskier than an auto race.

[2Cdo]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

2Cdo 2Cdo:

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Point continues to be: Chuck wagon races = bad

In your view. Another view would be Chuck wagon races = $$$$$

Another would be; not all horse racing is bad. Some is riskier than others, but then again the daily commute is also riskier than an auto race.

True. Imagine how utterly boring life would be if we removed everything that had an element of risk.

[herbie]

the whales they jump, it really rocks
they learn real fast with electric shocks.
The dolphins too, do lots of tricks
when we prod them with those pointy sticks
Everybody HATES Marine****