[ShepherdsDog]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

Regina Regina:

Tricks Tricks:

I learned today a lot of hospital staff have been doing this for a while through "slow codes". Found that to be an interesting loop hole.

Decades.

And yet the kept my father inlaw alive for 3 years after he'd begged them to let him die. Are they playing God already?

My maternal grandmother who had been a chief surgical nurse for years had a DNR clearly posted in her room, and had made it clear to staff that that is what she wanted. When she suffered her final heart(she had one about 20 years earlier, which was why she posted her DNR) attack, some little pissant fresh from medical school, completely ignored this and an agonizing death that should have been over in minutes dragged on for days. Even though her physical health had been in decline for years, she remained mentally sharp. She was terrified of ending up like her mom, who sank deep into dementia before dying at age 88

[Tricks]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

Tricks Tricks:

I learned today a lot of hospital staff have been doing this for a while through "slow codes". Found that to be an interesting loop hole.

I wonder how many people who didn't want to die because of these "slow codes" did which, brings us back to potential abuse by the medical profession who are now becoming god and the Gov't who is always wanting to save money on treating the terminally sick and elderly.

From my understanding this is typically done at the request of the patient when the family goes contrary to their wishes. The family wants everything done to keep them alive, but the patient expressed a wish to die.

[andyt]

Doctors aren't doing this while the patient is screaming "no, no, I don't want to die." The patient is in a come or otherwise out of it, and the doctor has the choice of upping the dose of morphine to ease suffering, but that dose might cause the patient's death. It's a grey area - no doctor is going to expose themselves to criminal charges, but these are cases where they can defend their decision.

The patient is a goner anyway. Why prolonging their agony for a few more days is deemed a wonderful idea is beyond me.

[Thanos]

A cancer patient can refuse chemo and radiation treatments if they choose because they are aware that the harsh effects of the therapy are going to be horrible and have a huge chance of not doing any good at all. As such anyone suffering from mental and emotional issues should also have the right to opt out of treatment, considering that these therapies are of very little benefit anyway and that pharmaceuticals for them can also have numerous awful side-effects too. This shouldn't be some kind of a checklist where someone in pain, either physical or mental/emotional, is obligated to jump through a series of hoops like a trained animal just to satisfy the system.

It is everyone's absolute and inalienable right to leave this existence when they want to. And they have no obligation at all to run through some gauntlet of therapies and other assorted torments to satisfy all the busybodies and other interferers out there. They're in enough pain as it is, so leave them the fuck alone already when they're making the most important decision of their entire existence. This is about THEIR right to choose what they see is best for them, it's not some obnoxious and mind-numbing bureaucratic procedure so outsiders can get some sense of cheap satisfaction for themselves by having their unwanted input and interference acknowledged. Go be a Good Samaritan with someone who actually wants your assistance, not with someone who's made the conscious and rational decision that continuing on in this world is something that they're no longer able to keep doing.

[andyt]

Death is a pretty severe side effect as well.

What you are saying is we should have death chambers. Just walk right in, have a seat, and we'll take care of the rest, no muss, no fuss, no questions asked, as long as, presumably, you are of legal age. Or what, any age, since kids feel like dying sometimes too?

Little too extreme for me. But hey, a great conservative solution to all those welfare spongers and those too poor to pay taxes - who needs them. Just direct them to the nearest Death Canada facility (recently privatized) and give them a chit for the cost. Problem solved.

[PluggyRug]

Maybe we should follow the Oregon example.


http://public.health.oregon.gov/Provide ... index.aspx

[2Cdo]

andyt andyt:

Little too extreme for me. But hey, a great conservative solution to all those welfare spongers and those too poor to pay taxes - who needs them. Just direct them to the nearest Death Canada facility (recently privatized) and give them a chit for the cost. Problem solved.

And yet most who you would consider conservative are against assisted suicide, of any kind, whereas you are all for it. Logically you would be the one to take this next step.

[andyt]

PluggyRug PluggyRug:

Maybe we should follow the Oregon example.


http://public.health.oregon.gov/Provide ... index.aspx

No. It only allows for self-administration. If you want to end it because you are in later stages of ALS, and can't self-administer, that should be no reason to prevent you from accessing this service.

Since we're coming late to the party, we should look at all jurisdictions that allow some form of this, see what works best and go with that. Reams of evidence given in the court case that looked at research for this - the answers are there for us. As long as Harper doesn't play silly buggers with this.

Problem is with the upcoming election. No party is eager to re-open this debate, so it may not be given the airing it deserves in the election run up. They only have until Feb next year to enact legislation, so they'd really have to hurry to get it passed between the October election and then. Better to take time and get it right the first time. Maybe the court will grant an extension if they see a serious effort is being made to address the issue.

[Thanos]

My mom is back in the hospital again. She's gotten too weak and will probably end up in some kind of assisted living place soon because normal exertion is just too hard for her now. She's in a ward with other seniors, a lot of whom are suffering from dementia, and need help with basic things like bathing or going to the toilet. That's what the final years look like. None of this golden living shit that gets spread around on TV commercials, here in this joke of a society that's made itself believe that an extended lifespan beyond the limits that nature set is somehow a good thing. It's not. It's a torture, just a sad decline into total helplessness, with all the grotesque humiliations that a failing body and mind can provide.

I'll tell all of you right now what I said to God when I walked out of that place after a visit last night. That WILL NOT happen to me when my time comes. I will not go through that decline or any of that goddamn fucking humiliation. It will be my decision, by my own hand. And no one, and not that son of a bitch of a God, will get in my way or stop me when I choose the time and the place. It might be next week or it might not be for another thirty years. But I will be the one to choose. Not the government, not some doctor going through the motions, and certainly not some church assholes who claim to be speaking for our all-loving (fucking LOL) deity. My decision, no one else's, and anyone who wants to get in the way is going to get run the fuck over.

[Freakinoldguy]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

My maternal grandmother who had been a chief surgical nurse for years had a DNR clearly posted in her room, and had made it clear to staff that that is what she wanted. When she suffered her final heart(she had one about 20 years earlier, which was why she posted her DNR) attack, some little pissant fresh from medical school, completely ignored this and an agonizing death that should have been over in minutes dragged on for days. Even though her physical health had been in decline for years, she remained mentally sharp. She was terrified of ending up like her mom, who sank deep into dementia before dying at age 88

Yup, apparently some doctors still adhere to the Hippocratic oath and for them it takes preference over a persons wishes so, I can see assisted suicides becoming a form of medical specialty with that certain group of physicians who are willing to do it travelling around the country to carry them out.

[Freakinoldguy]

Tricks Tricks:

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

Tricks Tricks:

I learned today a lot of hospital staff have been doing this for a while through "slow codes". Found that to be an interesting loop hole.

I wonder how many people who didn't want to die because of these "slow codes" did which, brings us back to potential abuse by the medical profession who are now becoming god and the Gov't who is always wanting to save money on treating the terminally sick and elderly.

From my understanding this is typically done at the request of the patient when the family goes contrary to their wishes. The family wants everything done to keep them alive, but the patient expressed a wish to die.

Fair enough and I wish that they'd done that with my father inlaw but, there have been stories about the elderly left alone in emergency rooms dying because of a lack of attention which makes me wonder if some of those were slow codes initiated by the medical profession and not the patient.

My wife and daughter were in a car accident years ago and my daughter ended up in emergency in a bed besides some old guy who was obviously quite ill and basically in a coma.

Well long story short. One of the nurses behind the screen asked the ER Dr. why no one was treating the elderly gentleman and the doctors reply chilled me to the bone. He said the gentleman was going to die soon so why waste resources on him. After hearing that I've become extremely paranoid about doctors, hospitals and the health care system as a whole playing god with the elderly, infirmed or mentally ill just to save money.

Although I always wondered if that gentleman had signed a previous DNR order and they carried it out or, if he was just discarded like last weeks wash water.

BTW I have a DNR order in my will but, given the medical profession, if I'm in a coma, they'll keep me alive and if I've got a cold I'm probably a goner.

[andyt]

What treatment did you want them to give that guy? Heroic measures to prolong life for a few hours or days? As long as his pain was managed, seems to me that's all we should expect. It's certainly what I hope they do for me, instead of prolonging my suffering. You just have to accept that some people are dying, and trying to delay that is just cruel for them.

Hell if I'm in a coma, I don't even care if they pull the plug even if I could have been revived and kept on living. I think we get more than one go round anyway, so what's the diff. For Christians, they should welcome early death, since they say about somebody that died that "s/he's in a better place."

It's really only the atheists that should resist early death and "Rage, rage against the dying of the light." logically speaking.

[Freakinoldguy]

andyt andyt:

What treatment did you want them to give that guy? Heroic measures to prolong life for a few hours or days? As long as his pain was managed, seems to me that's all we should expect. It's certainly what I hope they do for me, instead of prolonging my suffering. You just have to accept that some people are dying, and trying to delay that is just cruel for them.

Hell if I'm in a coma, I don't even care if they pull the plug even if I could have been revived and kept on living. I think we get more than one go round anyway, so what's the diff. For Christians, they should welcome early death, since they say about somebody that died that "s/he's in a better place."

It's really only the atheists that should resist early death and "Rage, rage against the dying of the light." logically speaking.

You're assuming that this gentleman thought like you and wanted to die which is something we don't know. For all we know he may have wanted to prolong his life. Maybe he had one more bucket list item to finish or family to say goodbye to but the doctor decided that they shouldn't waste any resources on him so he died whether he wanted to or not.

Was the doctor wrong in not trying to revive the gentleman? My answer is if there wasn't a DNR order yes. But given your response, here's the 64 thousand dollar question. For whatever reason you don't seem to have a problem with a medical professional having the power of life and death over a person with or without that persons consent yet, when someone wants the state to have that same power you go completely off the rails, why?

TBH I'd much rather they execute someone like Paul Bernardo and unless otherwise specifically indicated, keep the elderly, infirmed and mentally ill alive rather than the other way around.

[andyt]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

You're assuming that this gentleman thought like you and wanted to die which is something we don't know. For all we know he may have wanted to prolong his life. Maybe he had one more bucket list item to finish or family to say goodbye to but the doctor decided that they shouldn't waste any resources on him so he died whether he wanted to or not.

Was the doctor wrong in not trying to revive the gentleman? My answer is if there wasn't a DNR order yes. But given your response, here's the 64 thousand dollar question. For whatever reason you don't seem to have a problem with a medical professional having the power of life and death over a person with or without that persons consent yet, when someone wants the state to have that same power you go completely off the rails, why?

TBH I'd much rather they execute someone like Paul Bernardo and unless otherwise specifically indicated, keep the elderly, infirmed and mentally ill alive rather than the other way around.

That gentleman was dying, whether he wanted to or not. Some futile effort the slow this process down just means he gets to suffer more. I have no problem with a doctor making the assessment that further efforts are futile and just eases his dying. TV shows with the doctor pounding on his chest shouting "live damn you live", notwithstanding. I would rather the doctor spend his time in the ER reviving some young woman who can go on to live a fruitful life than on some old fart who's a goner no matter how you slice it. It's called triage and happens in hospitals every day.

I don't understand your sentence about the state having power? You don't mean death sentence, do you? If so, if you can't see the diff between killing somebody who's fully alive, just for revenge, vs letting somebody who's dying one way or the other go easily instead of in great distress, then you need to give your head a shake. Not too hard in case the marbles fall out.

what the fuck do the elderly, infirm or mentally ill have to do with this discussion, except as a bullshit dodge. This is about people who are very near death, will be dead one way or the other very soon, and not torturing them further to keep them alive (if you can call it that) for a very little bit longer. And that we don't have unlimited resources, which I would rather see go to somebody who still has a chance. I feel same way about the very early premies, who, if they do survive, have a very good chance of leading a very miserable, short life. Jut let them go already.

[Freakinoldguy]

andyt andyt:

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

You're assuming that this gentleman thought like you and wanted to die which is something we don't know. For all we know he may have wanted to prolong his life. Maybe he had one more bucket list item to finish or family to say goodbye to but the doctor decided that they shouldn't waste any resources on him so he died whether he wanted to or not.

Was the doctor wrong in not trying to revive the gentleman? My answer is if there wasn't a DNR order yes. But given your response, here's the 64 thousand dollar question. For whatever reason you don't seem to have a problem with a medical professional having the power of life and death over a person with or without that persons consent yet, when someone wants the state to have that same power you go completely off the rails, why?

TBH I'd much rather they execute someone like Paul Bernardo and unless otherwise specifically indicated, keep the elderly, infirmed and mentally ill alive rather than the other way around.

That gentleman was dying, whether he wanted to or not. Some futile effort the slow this process down just means he gets to suffer more. I have no problem with a doctor making the assessment that further efforts are futile and just eases his dying. TV shows with the doctor pounding on his chest shouting "live damn you live", notwithstanding. I would rather the doctor spend his time in the ER reviving some young woman who can go on to live a fruitful life than on some old fart who's a goner no matter how you slice it. It's called triage and happens in hospitals every day.

I don't understand your sentence about the state having power? You don't mean death sentence, do you? If so, if you can't see the diff between killing somebody who's fully alive, just for revenge, vs letting somebody who's dying one way or the other go easily instead of in great distress, then you need to give your head a shake. Not too hard in case the marbles fall out.

what the fuck do the elderly, infirm or mentally ill have to do with this discussion, except as a bullshit dodge. This is about people who are very near death, will be dead one way or the other very soon, and not torturing them further to keep them alive (if you can call it that) for a very little bit longer. And that we don't have unlimited resources, which I would rather see go to somebody who still has a chance. I feel same way about the very early premies, who, if they do survive, have a very good chance of leading a very miserable, short life. Jut let them go already.

So, in your world it's okay to kill people as a cost saving measure or under the guise of compassion whether they want to die or not but, only if you're a medical professional.

Sorry but that's just utter Eugenics bullshit and the reason I mentioned the seniors, infirmed and mentally ill is that they're the most vulnerable to your idea of giving carte blanche to doctors for allowing people to die from their direct actions or lack there of.

Don't get me wrong I understand your point of view because we wouldn't allow an animal to suffer but we have to be the sole arbitrators of their lives because they can't tell us if they want to continue living. With people it's a totally different set of rules that make it very difficult for single people to decide what a person really wants. So for anyone who wants control over their life in it's latter stages I'd hope they'd have something written down specifying their wishes so if some medical professional let's them die and they didn't want to there would be repercussions.

I have no problem if a person wants to die being granted that privilege based on their own personal need or parents being allowed to DNR for their children if there is sufficient reason to do so.

What bothers me is that people who think like you have the potential to allow the system to change assisted suicide from an act of compassion to nothing more than a cost saving measure for governments and hospitals especially if this ruling allows the medical profession to become the sole arbitrators of all decisions.