[Zipperfish]

Organic, humanely slaughtered meat is a big deal out here in Lotusland right now. I'm actually looking into it myself, after these two animal abuse stories at slaughterhouses have come to light. It will be a lot more expensive, but I'll cut down my meat intake accordingly, which isn't a bad thing. I asked a couple of people at work about it and was surprised that there are a number of people doing this.

Of course, this is Vancouver.

[DrCaleb]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

I asked a couple of people at work about it and was surprised that there are a number of people doing this.

Everyone should know where the meat on their plate comes from. And they too would eat less of it.

For me, I look at the overall equation. IIRC, it 'costs' around 500 calories of vegetables to make 20 calories of chicken. Is it not more efficient to eat the grains/veggies instead of feeding them to chicken, only to get back fewer calories in meat? Plus all the other costs, like maintaining chicken coops. . .

[Xort]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Lets see what CFIA regulations have to say:

And as I said (and as you continue to ignore) alot of the pigs' mobility issues arise from poor handingling in the first place: herding too many pigs into too small an area, herding them into a poorly designed area (i.e. too dark, uneven flooring, etc., stressing the pigs with agressive handling, standing in the wrong spot (i.e. standing infront of a pig's shoulders will cause it to back up, not go forward), too hot, too cold, kicking and beating the pig, lame/hobbled pigs etc. Solve all of those systemic problems first and we can deal with your mythical sceario of the one evil pig in a perfect, calming setting who is able to move but refuses to obey its kind and loving handlers.

You still refuse to answer a simple question.

Or is your answer: "Unloading a non-ambulatory animal before it has been stunned, or causing such an animal to be unloaded, is unacceptable and is a contravention of the Health of Animals Regulations." To stun the animal into senselessness then drag it around?

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

For me, I look at the overall equation. IIRC, it 'costs' around 500 calories of vegetables to make 20 calories of chicken. Is it not more efficient to eat the grains/veggies instead of feeding them to chicken, only to get back fewer calories in meat? Plus all the other costs, like maintaining chicken coops. . .

A far easier calculation is to take the retail price and then divide by the calories in the item.

Recall that humans can not eat everything that our meat animals can or would be willing to. If you think you can live on chicken feed then please go ahead and try, document your experiment put it on Youtube, become a internet celebrity.

I think you will find your ability to eat grasses like a cow is more than a bit lacking.

[wildrosegirl]

Xort Xort:

So in other words I don't have anything to say to this.

That's correct. You have no more actual knowledge of this topic than you do of menstrual cramps, so to continue attempting to have a conversation would be an absolute waste of time. Not something I fancy.

[andyt]

Factory farmed meat aint going away anytime soon. Time to at least enforce the regulations such as they are.

[Xort]

wildrosegirl wildrosegirl:

That's correct. You have no more actual knowledge of this topic than you do of menstrual cramps, so to continue attempting to have a conversation would be an absolute waste of time. Not something I fancy.

What I see is someone that was caught short when pressed to support their point of view, and is now falling back to the most comical of defenses. "I can't even express how wrong you are you are so wrong. In fact I won't even try!"

Maybe next time you will just keep your opinions to yourself if you are unwilling to express anything other than you being so massively right that you don't even have to say anything in support of yourself.

Or to put it another way; Adults are talking here, hush. Go play with your toys in the other room.

[Delwin]

I really hate when people get all self righteous on the meat industry. Don't get me wrong, I would certainly advocate for treatment that is humane as possible without impeding production or driving the costs up. However, I feel as though people have forgotten our place in the food chain.

We need to consume life to continue to live, whether it be plant or animal and that is just how it is. I don't believe a wild deer being torn apart by a pack of wolves would be any less cruel and that is unarguably the natural way of things.

It would be very nice to put the animals up at the Hilton while they get fat enough to slaughter but it is not economically feasible. I would much rather find a way to get more pigs to market to feed the thousands of children who go hungry everyday in this country.

I also agree with the poster who suggested that these workers have conditioned themselves to treat the animals as objects. Who would want to get attached to something that they are about to kill? Moreover, I am sure they have performance expectations that need to be met regardless of how stubborn the pigs might be.

I never try to forget where my food came from, the sacrifice of another life to enable mine. I almost never waste food, particularly meat and I respect the fact that because my life costs more than that of a pig, it also means a lot more.

[andyt]

Delwin Delwin:

I would much rather find a way to get more pigs to market to feed the thousands of children who go hungry everyday in this country.

In this country, and I believe in the world as well, there is no food shortage. There is a distribution problem, ie income inequity, and a waste problem. We could certainly humanize meat production to some degree (more space for pigs and chickens, no corn fed cattle), make meat cost a bit more, without harming the nutrition available to all Canadians - if we made sure they had the money to buy nutritious food and quit wasting 1/2 of the food we produce.

[BeaverFever]

$1:

You still refuse to answer a simple question.

Or is your answer: "Unloading a non-ambulatory animal before it has been stunned, or causing such an animal to be unloaded, is unacceptable and is a contravention of the Health of Animals Regulations." To stun the animal into senselessness then drag it around?

OMG what don't you understand??? Your question is like asking "if I can't bash children's heads in with a hammer, what am I supposed to bash their heads in with?" You keep asking how you're supposed to force non-ambulatory animals to walk....the answer is you're not supposed to force non-ambulatory animals to walk. Do you get it?

1) As you can see, if an animal comes off the truck and can't/won't walk, the on-site vet is supposed to look at it first. THEN if it still can't move under its own power, it's to be stunned. It's not "dragged around" (there you go again with your straw men), there is a cart specifically for moving non-ambulatory hogs.

2) Healthy pigs that refuse to walk are the result of poor handling and poor design of the handling area. Handle the pig properly and you won't have a problem.

I mean come on, why do you think beating animals to get them to move is against the law and company policy, if you think it's so necessary?

[Delwin]

andyt andyt:

Delwin Delwin:

I would much rather find a way to get more pigs to market to feed the thousands of children who go hungry everyday in this country.

In this country, and I believe in the world as well, there is no food shortage. There is a distribution problem, ie income inequity, and a waste problem. We could certainly humanize meat production to some degree (more space for pigs and chickens, no corn fed cattle), make meat cost a bit more, without harming the nutrition available to all Canadians - if we made sure they had the money to buy nutritious food and quit wasting 1/2 of the food we produce.

Ok are you arguing that the cost of an item and our ability to access it aren't exactly the same thing? Because it sounds like you are.

[Thanos]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

$1:

You still refuse to answer a simple question.

Or is your answer: "Unloading a non-ambulatory animal before it has been stunned, or causing such an animal to be unloaded, is unacceptable and is a contravention of the Health of Animals Regulations." To stun the animal into senselessness then drag it around?

OMG what don't you understand??? Your question is like asking "if I can't bash children's heads in with a hammer, what am I supposed to bash their heads in with?" You keep asking how you're supposed to force non-ambulatory animals to walk....the answer is you're not supposed to force non-ambulatory animals to walk. Do you get it?

1) As you can see, if an animal comes off the truck and can't/won't walk, the on-site vet is supposed to look at it first. THEN if it still can't move under its own power, it's to be stunned. It's not "dragged around" (there you go again with your straw men), there is a cart specifically for moving non-ambulatory hogs.

2) Healthy pigs that refuse to walk are the result of poor handling and poor design of the handling area. Handle the pig properly and you won't have a problem.

I mean come on, why do you think beating animals to get them to move is against the law and company policy, if you think it's so necessary?

I doubt there'd be as much objection to an employee with a bolt-gun, or even a handgun, on the loading dock being assigned to immediately kill an immobilized animal that's coming off the truck in an injured state. Certainly be less offensive on every conceivable moral level to some asshole repeatedly kicking it, beating it with a club, or running into it with the forks on a forklift in some hair-brained attempt to pick it up.

Kind of shaking my head in genuine puzzlement that there's anyone out there that can't see how obvious this is.

[BRAH]

Even though these animals are going to the slaughter house it's still hard to watch them abused like this.

[andyt]

Delwin Delwin:

andyt andyt:

Delwin Delwin:

I would much rather find a way to get more pigs to market to feed the thousands of children who go hungry everyday in this country.

In this country, and I believe in the world as well, there is no food shortage. There is a distribution problem, ie income inequity, and a waste problem. We could certainly humanize meat production to some degree (more space for pigs and chickens, no corn fed cattle), make meat cost a bit more, without harming the nutrition available to all Canadians - if we made sure they had the money to buy nutritious food and quit wasting 1/2 of the food we produce.

Ok are you arguing that the cost of an item and our ability to access it aren't exactly the same thing? Because it sounds like you are.

I'm arguing that I'd rather focus on people having money to buy meat that is raised at some minimal standard. I doubt we have much floor anyway, where we treat meat even more like an industrial product and decrease the price significantly. I would guess we're about as "efficient" there as possible. What would happen is that meat quality and safety would decline to make the meat significantly cheaper. Better to just put enough money in everybody's pocket where they can afford nutritious food that's produced to decent standards. Applies to veges too, not using dangerous pesticides, banned here but used in 3rd world countries we import from. Or paving over all our land here, becoming reliant on California for most of our produce, only to have climate change fuck up that idea.

[BeaverFever]

Here's an article I recall from over 10 years ago. I remember it because I happened to be reading a book by this author at time (who is an Anglican priest) about the pagan roots of Christianity.

$1:

Sep. 21, 2003. 09:36 AM


Western culture floats upon a sea of blood
TOM HARPUR

The media lately have devoted large amounts of ink, sound and film to the
issue of meat, the key ingredient in the diet of North Americans and of most
people in the richest countries everywhere.

>From the implications of mad cow disease out west to the controversy over
the dead cattle arriving at an Aylmer, Ontario slaughterhouse, meat and its
handling, quality, and potential effects upon human health have been front
and centre.

But, have you noticed how the focus is always, obsessively, upon how what
happens to cattle or other animals affects their impact on homo sapiens
alone?

Our whole Western culture floats upon a veritable sea of blood and gore. The
killing of animals and fowl goes on relentlessly day by day in sequestered,
foul-smelling buildings in cities, towns, villages, and in rural areas all
across the continent.

Only extremely rarely and for a brief moment is the veil ever lifted on how
these sacrifices to our palates are being enacted.

More than a decade ago I took the initiative of putting on rubber boots, a
gown, and a safety helmet for a close-up look inside several Ontario
abattoirs. I described what I saw in a four-part series. But, unless I'm
mistaken, there hasn't been another investigative scrutiny by a journalist
of these killing floors since that time.

Yes, we know there are veterinarians and federal meat inspectors on duty at
such places and our trust is that the whole unpleasant process is being
carefully and humanely overseen. Such is supposed to be the case. In the
matter of religious killing, where no stunning or gassing first occurs, we
know the butchers are supposed to be the best available — with special
mechanical devices to hold the throat of the animal completely open to the
slice of the near-decapitating knife.

But, there is a tremendous amount of hidden anguish and suffering going on
that the public never sees or knows. We walk through the meat section of our
grocery stores filling our carts with antiseptically wrapped steaks, roasts,
chops, hamburger and the rest with seldom a thought that living creatures
were slaughtered and cut to pieces to provide them.

We eat small amounts of meat only occasionally after my experience of 10
years ago but care a lot about how it is killed. I will honestly never
forget the look of fear and betrayal of the cattle I saw being herded and
prodded into the killing chute. I can never forget the screaming of pigs
being electrically prodded up their ramp of death at a site in downtown
Toronto. You could tell they knew their fate was sealed. They died in panic.

All of this came back so vividly to me the other day while reading a Star
account of an audit of beef plants in Ontario and Quebec done by one of the
leading experts in the field. The headline caught my eye at once: "Slaughter
industry standards slip: Audit". Below this, a sub-heading said: "Canada is
falling behind the U.S., expert says; Plants in Ontario and Quebec get
failing grades".

If the woman who did the inspection, Temple Grandin, a professor of animal
science at the Colorado State University, had not just posted her findings
on the Internet herself, they might never have come to light at all.
Grandin's audit was commissioned by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency
(CFIA) last year and completed in June, about a month after the first case
of mad cow disease was discovered. It was delivered to CFIA within weeks,
but the agency never made it public.

Here's what she found: Out of five beef plants, two failed because of
excessive use of electric prods, cattle falling on slippery floors as they
lined up to be stunned, and three cattle were actually hanging upside down
(hung by a chain around one leg) and bellowing as their throats were being
slit. The regulations require that cattle be stunned unconscious first. Then
they are hung up, have their throats cut, and bleed out over grilles below.
Grandin told Star reporter Stuart Laidlaw by phone that one beef plant used
electric prods on 90 per cent of the cattle and that 14 per cent of the
animals there slipped and fell in the holding pen. Pigs were excessively
prodded by electricity. One chicken plant failed because it had received too
many birds with broken wings. One can only imagine the horror of their
journey to death.

Here's the kicker for me: The plants Grandin inspected knew she was coming
and had voluntarily opened their doors. They are only a small fraction of
the abattoirs daily grinding out this grim business.

For the first time, Canada is behind the U.S. on this. It is to be hoped
that Laidlaw's story and this column raise awareness about treatment of the
animals we eat.

Theologian and author Tom Harpur's books focus on spiritual growth.

[Delwin]

Ok, so if we agree that increasing standards will increase food costs and also agree that our ability to access food is directly related to its cost, the question becomes, how many humans would you see go hungry for your happy pigs?