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CKA Uber
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:51 pm
 


Zipperfish Zipperfish:
Thanos Thanos:
Just the usual lack of human ingenuity or cleverness in things economic or in the distribution of resources. I doubt you could get much agreement, at least from the current generation of swells or other ubermensch masters of the universe, on how much of a basic need qualifies as a "right" when it's practically impossible to even get them to agree that even the most minimal systemic fairness is in their own best interest too. Things like fair housing practices crept out of places like Scandinavia in the mid 19th century because even the wealthy of the era began to agree that it was kind of unsettling, and more than a bit mean-spirited, to see an entire family frozen to death on an Oslo or Stockholm sidewalk after they'd been evicted from a slum apartment in the middle of winter. Nowadays though? Listen to the most intense of the ideological free marketeers, judging by the ones I've seen on TV and the intarwebz, and a disinterested shrug is the best you seem to get out of them. :|


James Moore, Conservative MP: "Is it my job to feed my neighbour's child? I don't think so."


Pretty dumb comment from any angle. Way, way too much into the Randian bullshit that the TeaBirchers down south are into. Just a lousy way to look at humanity it general. Confident though that the Prime Minister, and none of the current Premiers (including the Conservative ones) don't believe in this idiocy at all, so there's no imminent danger of it ever becoming law just as (with the PM against it) there's no way that any anti-gay/anti-choice bills introduced by social conservative MP's will ever become law. One of those free speech things where someone says something that should really introduce just some eye rolling instead of the usual panic we get from liberals that it's all "worse than Hitler!".

It's not like the other side doesn't enjoy being stupid either. I'd bet, and I've seen individual MP's say this on TV, that the whole NDP and the most-left of the Liberals believe that anyone making more than $50-60K per year counts as wealthy and should be taxed higher, up to and including 50% of their income. Hit these people up with a tax rate like that and you're basically impoverishing them to the point where they have no greater buying power or ability to save for retirement than someone in the $30-40K range that's paying much less tax does. It's bad and dumb policy, just as bad and dumb as anything the Randroids among us keep proposing.

The dumbness infects everything. It's certainly not exclusive to only one side.


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CKA Uber
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 2:01 pm
 


BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Thanos Thanos:
Just the usual lack of human ingenuity or cleverness in things economic or in the distribution of resources. I doubt you could get much agreement, at least from the current generation of swells or other ubermensch masters of the universe, on how much of a basic need qualifies as a "right" when it's practically impossible to even get them to agree that even the most minimal systemic fairness is in their own best interest too. Things like fair housing practices crept out of places like Scandinavia in the mid 19th century because even the wealthy of the era began to agree that it was kind of unsettling, and more than a bit mean-spirited, to see an entire family frozen to death on an Oslo or Stockholm sidewalk after they'd been evicted from a slum apartment in the middle of winter. Nowadays though? Listen to the most intense of the ideological free marketeers, judging by the ones I've seen on TV and the intarwebz, and a disinterested shrug is the best you seem to get out of them. :|


What it all boils down to is freedom. If people are free then they are also free to fail. But if they're not free to fail then they're not free at all.

I choose freedom, warts and all. I'd rather freeze to death on an Oslo sidewalk than be cold and hungry in some socialist slum like the council housing in the UK.


No. The greater good, and the basic Christian ethic, demands that no one be left in misery if their suffering can be reduced or eliminated. It's an atrocity of thought as far as I'm concerned. All that "altruism is evil" pap that Ayn Rand and her followers introduced into the collective discussion (and, unfortunately, into the ideology of the right wing) is as horrible and anti-human as anything the Nazis or Communists ever thought up. And I certainly don't care about Godwin-ing the thread by openly saying so.

They have a responsibility to take advantage of the opportunities that are offered to them to make their lives better, and I'm not going to fall for the BS pushed by social liberals that there aren't any opportunities offered to them at all. The rest of us though have the responsibility not to make things more difficult for them than they already are. Seems the basic humane thing to do in any situation is to make an effort not to kick someone as hard as you can when they're already down. That's something only bullies and psychopaths would be proud of doing.


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Forum Elite
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:30 pm
 


Eric Kierans and Walter Stewart wrote some 25 years ago about how the modern capitalist system has become inverted from what it used to be, in that it now favours producers far more than consumers. They also talked about how some companies accumulate so much power and wealth that they almost become a law unto themselves, getting lawmakers to pass legislation and policies that benefit them specifically, frequently cutting out competition while trying to force open other countries' markets. The increasing tendency among some businesspeople to focus on short-term profits over long term gain was not helping things, either.

They did all this while also talking about the values of trade and capitalism, and denouncing the idea of nationalizing everything.

Now, look at what one of America's wealthiest entrepreneurs is saying:

$1:

At the same time that people like you and me are thriving beyond the dreams of any plutocrats in history, the rest of the country—the 99.99 percent—is lagging far behind...But the problem isn’t that we have inequality. Some inequality is intrinsic to any high-functioning capitalist economy. The problem is that inequality is at historically high levels and getting worse every day. Our country is rapidly becoming less a capitalist society and more a feudal society. Unless our policies change dramatically, the middle class will disappear, and we will be back to late 18th-century France. Before the revolution.

...

If we don’t do something to fix the glaring inequities in this economy, the pitchforks are going to come for us. No society can sustain this kind of rising inequality. In fact, there is no example in human history where wealth accumulated like this and the pitchforks didn’t eventually come out. You show me a highly unequal society, and I will show you a police state. Or an uprising. There are no counterexamples. None. It’s not if, it’s when.

...

It’s when I realized this that I decided I had to leave my insulated world of the super-rich and get involved in politics...I wanted to try to change the conversation with ideas—by advancing what my co-author, Eric Liu, and I call “middle-out” economics. It’s the long-overdue rebuttal to the trickle-down economics worldview that has become economic orthodoxy across party lines—and has so screwed the American middle class and our economy generally. Middle-out economics rejects the old misconception that an economy is a perfectly efficient, mechanistic system and embraces the much more accurate idea of an economy as a complex ecosystem made up of real people who are dependent on one another.

...

Dear 1%ers, many of our fellow citizens are starting to believe that capitalism itself is the problem. I disagree, and I’m sure you do too. Capitalism, when well managed, is the greatest social technology ever invented to create prosperity in human societies. But capitalism left unchecked tends toward concentration and collapse. It can be managed either to benefit the few in the near term or the many in the long term. The work of democracies is to bend it to the latter.



This reminds me of what Kierans and Stewart were talking about when they mention how Adam Smith talked about the invisible hand operating within a set of ethical and moral guidelines, and how the state plays an essential role in providing that ethical and moral framework, and ensuring that everyone has, inasmuch as possible, at least some form of social support.

This ties into something I've mentioned before on this site, namely how private enterprise and individual gain can complement the strengths and compensate for the weaknesses of government effort, and vice versa. As with so many other issues in Canada, much of our current political dialogue implies that we're in this zero-sum game where apparently all we can have is either a highly-taxed welfare state or a hard-nosed laissez-faire one. That is nonsense, of course-given how combining them has been one of the keys to Canada's success as a society. Some inequality is always going to exist, but government action can help act as a cushion to mitigate its worst manifestations. There's a reason it's called the social "safety net" after all.

As to how we break out of that zero-sum game...again, that's the million-dollar question, isn't it?


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CKA Uber
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:34 pm
 


WE're not in a zero sum game. All modern states combine the two elements you describe, even the US. The question is how much of each element, and the US has lost it's way giving in to those pushing it toward the laissez faire direction. The same impulse is operating in Canada with increasing inequality. But at some point I'm sure the opposite push will come back to the fore.

Breaking out of the zero sum game just requires taking off the black or white glasses.


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