[Gunnair]

Bodah Bodah:

Gunnair Gunnair:

I won't argue too hard that it may contribute, but it does not in any way shape or form take away from the fact that the shitpumps in this case made a conscious choice to have a shoot out in a crowd in cluding women and children They made a conscious choice, and blaming the lack of a father (if that is even relevant here) excuses that choice.

Disagree.

First it's not an excuse nor should it be a consideration during sentencing, ever. I want the book thrown at these people, we have laws in place that allow it. But what we need now evidently, are judges that are willing to lay down the law.

A lot of kids grow up without fathers who do fine, and some kids grow up with two parents who don't. But if I had to take my chances and roll the dice I'd go with the two parent option.

I think most people would choose the same as well for logical reasons.

Raising kids isn't the hardest jobs out there, but you can't deny you get better results with not only the help of two adults. But more importantly if you have two sane adults that realize they want to do the best job they can raising their children, and that they are their first priority.

Seems like a good theory to me on how to keep a kid on the straight and narrow so they can avoid all sorts of problems in life then become succesfull. With the hopes they don't become a fucking retard at a BBQ firing a gun into a crowd killing two injuring nineteen others, including a head injury to an infant.

So yeah, throw the book at these dipshits.

And yet, in the exercise to explain the situation, we tend to gloss over the fact that said retard made a decision to open fire in a crowd. He knew what the outcome would be and chose not to care. Daddy issues aside, he made a choice not based on ignorance, but on absolute disdain for his fellow humans.

Irrespective of daddy issues and poverty, maybe we can also assume in this case that some people are simply pieces of shit. That would explain the rich white dudes with living parents that do similar bad things.

[OnTheIce]

Gunnair Gunnair:

And yet, in the exercise to explain the situation, we tend to gloss over the fact that said retard made a decision to open fire in a crowd. He knew what the outcome would be and chose not to care. Daddy issues aside, he made a choice not based on ignorance, but on absolute disdain for his fellow humans.

Irrespective of daddy issues and poverty, maybe we can also assume in this case that some people are simply pieces of shit. That would explain the rich white dudes with living parents that do similar bad things.

But you're missing the big picture here, Gun.

People make these decisions for 1 of two reasons. The first being some sort of mental problem and the second being the lack of care for consequences, a behavior learned by watching those around you.

If you grow up in a culture of "eye for an eye" and complete disregard for law and other people, you'll act in a certain way if those you look up to act like this.

If you have people around you who are respectful, law abiding people, you tend to adopt those morals and ethics yourself and lead your life with the example being set.

So yes, some people are just fucked-up from birth, but a great majority of these young men were misguided from day 1.

[Gunnair]

No I get the argument, and I will buy into it to a very certain degree, but like smokers saying the didn't know it wasn't good for them because they're parents didn't tell them, I refuse to ascribe that these kids are simply products of society. Society has its part, but free will is what led to the trigger being pulled, and even the dumbest fucktard is not so ignorant as to not guess what the outcome would be.

[EyeBrock]

I agree OTI. But this disdain for the law and others is particulary prevalent in certain cultures, Jamaican being one of them. The murder rate is extremely high as is the death rate of police trying to enforce the law.

$1:

It found that even though the total number of murders in Jamaica dropped after the report’s completion to 1,124 in 2011 – a seven-year low – the country has the highest homicide rate in the Caribbean and the third-highest murder rate worldwide in recent years, with about 60 murders per 100,000 inhabitants.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?N ... ibbean&Cr1

Jamaica, the third highest murder rate in the world.

[Zipperfish]

andyt andyt:

We have similar shit happening in BC, yet have very few Jamaicans - never hear about Jamaicans shooting each other. No doubt Carribbean culture contributes, but gangs come from all cultures. It's drug profits that beckon with a way to get rich quick, along with a society that values wealth no matter how ill gotten. When the Financial industry sets the example it does, gotta expect that the small timers try to emulate them in their own fashion. Anything for a buck. A topic such as this gets way more discussion and outrage than the ripoffs on Wall St.

Seems to be a rite of passage of new immigrant groups. There was the famous Italian - Irish - Jewish gangs of New York. Still haven't seen that movie Gangs of New York--is it any good?

[Zipperfish]

Gunnair Gunnair:

And yet, in the exercise to explain the situation, we tend to gloss over the fact that said retard made a decision to open fire in a crowd. He knew what the outcome would be and chose not to care. Daddy issues aside, he made a choice not based on ignorance, but on absolute disdain for his fellow humans.

Irrespective of daddy issues and poverty, maybe we can also assume in this case that some people are simply pieces of shit. That would explain the rich white dudes with living parents that do similar bad things.

I would bypass the whole issue and sentence the guy in accordance with his threat to society. All the other stuff is irrelevant to me--tough home life, bad neighbourhood, susbtance abuse issues, mental health problems. I see how these would contribute to anti-social behaviour, but I don't see why they should be releavnt in mitigating the sentence. We're not--at least we shouldn't be--putting people in prison to puish them; we should be putting them in prison to protect the rest of the population.

[andyt]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

andyt andyt:

We have similar shit happening in BC, yet have very few Jamaicans - never hear about Jamaicans shooting each other. No doubt Carribbean culture contributes, but gangs come from all cultures. It's drug profits that beckon with a way to get rich quick, along with a society that values wealth no matter how ill gotten. When the Financial industry sets the example it does, gotta expect that the small timers try to emulate them in their own fashion. Anything for a buck. A topic such as this gets way more discussion and outrage than the ripoffs on Wall St.

Seems to be a rite of passage of new immigrant groups. There was the famous Italian - Irish - Jewish gangs of New York. Still haven't seen that movie Gangs of New York--is it any good?

Go fuck yourself. (I don't get it, but it does seem to amuse you.)

[Zipperfish]

andyt andyt:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

andyt andyt:

We have similar shit happening in BC, yet have very few Jamaicans - never hear about Jamaicans shooting each other. No doubt Carribbean culture contributes, but gangs come from all cultures. It's drug profits that beckon with a way to get rich quick, along with a society that values wealth no matter how ill gotten. When the Financial industry sets the example it does, gotta expect that the small timers try to emulate them in their own fashion. Anything for a buck. A topic such as this gets way more discussion and outrage than the ripoffs on Wall St.

Seems to be a rite of passage of new immigrant groups. There was the famous Italian - Irish - Jewish gangs of New York. Still haven't seen that movie Gangs of New York--is it any good?

Go fuck yourself. (I don't get it, but it does seem to amuse you.)

I'm easily amused. I'm 47, and farts still get me giggling.

[andyt]

Gunnair Gunnair:

No I get the argument, and I will buy into it to a very certain degree, but like smokers saying the didn't know it wasn't good for them because they're parents didn't tell them, I refuse to ascribe that these kids are simply products of society. Society has its part, but free will is what led to the trigger being pulled, and even the dumbest fucktard is not so ignorant as to not guess what the outcome would be.

Sure, and they should get the full sentence the law calls for. But, as we've seen, tough on crime doesn't seem to give very good results, otherwise crack dealers in the states would be non-existent, and murder a seldom heard word (Detroit had 180 murders so far this year, TO 27).

So if we actually want to change the situation we have to look for what we can do that does work. So far nobody seems to have found the magic formula. But here are some bits: Bringing in poor immigrants with little skills that come from a violent culture and where fathering is seen as sperm donation doesn't help, but as I've pointed out, in Vancouver we have the same shit from cultures where parents are very much together and involved in their children's lives. I doubt it helps that those parents work 3 jobs to try to get ahead because our wages are so shitty at the bottom end. Also, when we bring in hordes of immigrants who come from cultures that don't trust the police, and cluster together instead of integrating, you get all those blind people who saw nothing. And so forth. But the white homegrown guys do it too, so obviously that's not the whole picture either. I'm illegal drugs might play a role here as well.

But again, when the big financial boys do their thing and rip off trillions, I guess that's one area where trickle down theory really works.