[HyperionTheEvil]

andyt andyt:

Yep, I remember a military analyst was called a lefty anti-military type because he said the planes wouldn't possibly cost 75 mil. And if course I didn't know what I was talking about having posted this analyst. Par for the course. That analysts estimate was 150 mil - if only.

Especially around here.

Even at the time when i provided documents from the Royal Air Force, and the U.S Dept of Defence that the price tag of 75 million per unit was total fantasy is still sent many conservatives around here into a frothing rage. That OMG we needed these planes, there were the best there was (wrong) that only they could do the "job" (Wrong) and also they never really defeined what the "job" was except was "What about the Chinese we have to protect ourselves against the Chinese invading that arctic! and be damned to the cost!"

These days they probably think we need them to defend ourselves against flying sharks.

[jeff744]

HyperionTheEvil HyperionTheEvil:

andyt andyt:

Yep, I remember a military analyst was called a lefty anti-military type because he said the planes wouldn't possibly cost 75 mil. And if course I didn't know what I was talking about having posted this analyst. Par for the course. That analysts estimate was 150 mil - if only.

Especially around here.

Even at the time when i provided documents from the Royal Air Force, and the U.S Dept of Defence that the price tag of 75 million per unit was total fantasy is still sent many conservatives around here into a frothing rage. That OMG we needed these planes, there were the best there was (wrong) that only they could do the "job" (Wrong) and also they never really defeined what the "job" was except was "What about the Chinese we have to protect ourselves against the Chinese invading that arctic! and be damned to the cost!"

These days they probably think we need them to defend ourselves against flying sharks.

This is Canada, a flying Polar Bear invasion is far more likely.

[Canadian_Mind]

The plane even has it's own facebook group. Some interesting information on there provided by Sukhoi and NPO Saturn, if you are willing to sift through all the crap to dig up the articles and links. Reading Russian, or having handy access to google translator is also handy.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sukhoi-PAK-FA-T-50/277917788603

Link to a neat pic: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150335715513604&set=a.10150294093113604.356959.277917788603&type=1&permPage=1

[PluggyRug]

What we need are 299 of these.

[andyt]

$1:

F-35 bid process was ‘hijacked’ by DND, former official says

Alan Williams is a retired assistant deputy minister, responsible for procurement at DND in the early years of the F-35 project, and recently he shared his thoughts on the shortcomings of the tendering process with the Office of the Auditor-General.“The whole process was twisted to suit the needs of the military, with the acknowledgment and support of ministers. It was totally unacceptable,” he said.

“You could run a competition today and have it done within two years,” he said. “You’d have to be blind and deaf not to know how much this project has gone off the rails.”

He said that in his experience, maintenance costs on sophisticated military equipment run at two to three times acquisition costs. He believes the eventual cost to taxpayers for the F-35s is likely to be $25- to $30-billion — double the current government estimate.


The 33-year public servant has no skin in this game, no clients, no political allegiances. “The only reason I’m doing this is to set the record straight and tell Canadians they’ve been misled,” he said. “The [F-35 purchase] process was completely hijacked and bastardized.”




The F-35 experience does suggest a process that is out of control. And we know that it is not an isolated incident. Mr. Williams said that former Chief of the Defence Staff, General Rick Hillier, once indicated to him that he wanted Chinook heavy lift helicopters. “I said to him, ‘don’t tell me that you want Chinooks, tell me your requirements’. Almost the day I left, they ordered Chinooks,” he said. These are the same Chinooks that are at least three years behind schedule and 100% over budget — the aircraft where former auditor-general Sheila Fraser said the deliberate understatement of risk by DND was “totally unacceptable.”


The whole F-35 saga reads like an episode of Yes, Minister, where the politicians pirouette to the tune played by the bureaucrats. Peter MacKay, the Defence Minister, was once asked how he knew the F-35 is the best aircraft available. The response was he read it in briefing notes provided by DND. Of course he did. The word on defence policy comes from Defence Department headquarters and it is home-made. Let’s hope the Auditor-General reminds the uniforms who pays the bills.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/201 ... cial-says/



Well, I guess Brock was right. The NP has turned hard left, otherwise how could they print garbage like this that attacks the military.

If the military needs a certain item, no matter what the cost, then let them and the govt state that publicly so the claim can be evaluated. Don't try to feed us this bullshit about the cost of the plane without engines or maintenance.

[Gunnair]

andyt andyt:

Weren't there a lot of experts on this forum assuring is that the cost wouldn't exceed 100 million per (don't remember the exact figure) We had some very strong opinions about how the F-35 was the only option and they pity the fool who believes otherwise.

Nope.

Got some names?

[andyt]

Sure. Just look back a few posts. I dug up where Brock called the analyst who said no way would the plane come in at 75 mil a left-leaning anti-military type. I doubt Brock was the only one taking hat position.

[Gunnair]

andyt andyt:

Sure. Just look back a few posts. I dug up where Brock called the analyst who said no way would the plane come in at 75 mil a left-leaning anti-military type. I doubt Brock was the only one taking hat position.

andyt andyt:

Weren't there a lot of experts on this forum assuring is that the cost wouldn't exceed 100 million per (don't remember the exact figure) We had some very strong opinions about how the F-35 was the only option and they pity the fool who believes otherwise.

That's it? Your broad brush found one?

[andyt]

SigPig SigPig:

Anyone who tries to claim that the F-35 is going to cost $150M is out to lunch. I double checked just to make sure and that is the cost of the F-22 which is a much larger, complex and capable aircraft with fewer copies being produced. I would say the government estimate of around $75M is about to close to right as you can get at this point.


And in case you want to see...
http://www.af.mil/information/factsheet ... asp?id=199

The only one I could find that used actual numbers. The rest was the usual crowd deriding anybody that questioned the F-35 deal as anti-military, or the usual Liberal propaganda. Apparently if you question a contract that involved no bidding and a ridiculously low cost estimate, you don't want to fund the military at all.

[Gunnair]

andyt andyt:

SigPig SigPig:

Anyone who tries to claim that the F-35 is going to cost $150M is out to lunch. I double checked just to make sure and that is the cost of the F-22 which is a much larger, complex and capable aircraft with fewer copies being produced. I would say the government estimate of around $75M is about to close to right as you can get at this point.


And in case you want to see...
http://www.af.mil/information/factsheet ... asp?id=199

The only one I could find that used actual numbers. The rest was the usual crowd deriding anybody that questioned the F-35 deal as anti-military, or the usual Liberal propaganda. Apparently if you question a contract that involved no bidding and a ridiculously low cost estimate, you don't want to fund the military at all.

So you found two.

Got some quotes for the next broad brush?

[Shadow_Flanker]

Dragon-Dancer Dragon-Dancer:

jeff744 jeff744:

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

Glad I'm not the only one who looked at what the Russians got and asked "what if?".

On paper the Pak Fa is supposed to be better in every catagory than the Su-35. And it's a damn fine looking aircraft to boot.



Took it from this article, a very interesting, but detailed read: http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2010-01.html

It would actually be really nice to see Russia and Canada joint develop a fighter designed specifically for our regions, we both deal with the issue of having to secure a massive area with much of it highly underdeveloped. Even buying something the Russians built and just modifying it a bit for Canada would be immensely useful.

It would be a bit of a slap in the face to the Americans to be using Russian made aircraft in Canada but I agree, the aircraft has very nice specs and certainly has been built to function effectively in a similar environment to our own.

It could be seen as a slap in the face but considering that going free of ITAR and End User Monitoring Agreement would make getting spares, supplies and other technical kit easier to get.

France and Russia are known for their relaxed regulations in arms sales, so perhaps we'd be better off dealing with them.

PAK-FA looks great, but I'm not sure if an all stealth air fleet is needed for our air force.

[HyperionTheEvil]

Gunnair Gunnair:

andyt andyt:

Sure. Just look back a few posts. I dug up where Brock called the analyst who said no way would the plane come in at 75 mil a left-leaning anti-military type. I doubt Brock was the only one taking hat position.

andyt andyt:

Weren't there a lot of experts on this forum assuring is that the cost wouldn't exceed 100 million per (don't remember the exact figure) We had some very strong opinions about how the F-35 was the only option and they pity the fool who believes otherwise.

That's it? Your broad brush found one?

You asked for a name a got one, moving the goalposts again i see.

[Gunnair]

HyperionTheEvil HyperionTheEvil:

Gunnair Gunnair:

andyt andyt:

Sure. Just look back a few posts. I dug up where Brock called the analyst who said no way would the plane come in at 75 mil a left-leaning anti-military type. I doubt Brock was the only one taking hat position.

andyt andyt:

Weren't there a lot of experts on this forum assuring is that the cost wouldn't exceed 100 million per (don't remember the exact figure) We had some very strong opinions about how the F-35 was the only option and they pity the fool who believes otherwise.

That's it? Your broad brush found one?

You asked for a name a got one, moving the goalposts again i see.

Lot of experts suggests more than one. Be a shitiot on your own time if comprehension is such a massive personal failing you have to suffer with.

[HyperionTheEvil]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Lot of experts suggests more than one. Be a shitiot on your own time if comprehension is such a massive personal failing you have to suffer with.

The "comprehension" issue is yours i believe, you asked for a name then got one, then complained about it only being one name and then he gave you two, and now you want quotes. What would be the point, you're exactly the kind of conservative we were talking about. It wouldn't matter how many names or quotes he found. The same thing would happen as when this whole controversy started, no matter what independent proof you were given it would never be enough.

The difference today is that it's a known fact that the F-35 it turning not into a billion dollar boondoggle but a 9 billion + boondoggle with no end in sight.

[Gunnair]

HyperionTheEvil HyperionTheEvil:

Gunnair Gunnair:

Lot of experts suggests more than one. Be a shitiot on your own time if comprehension is such a massive personal failing you have to suffer with.

The "comprehension" issue is yours i believe, you asked for a name then got one, then complained about it only being one name and then he gave you two, and now you want quotes. What would be the point, you're exactly the kind of conservative we were talking about. It wouldn't matter how many names or quotes he found. The same thing would happen as when this whole controversy started, no matter what independent proof you were given it would never be enough.

The difference today is that it's a known fact that the F-35 it turning not into a billion dollar boondoggle but a 9 billion + boondoggle with no end in sight.

Yep, asking for the list of the 'lots of experts' should have stopped at one in your world.

Yeah, once again you grace the forums with your periodic idiocy. Fortunately you don't visit too often to inflict it upon us.