[andyt]

peck420 peck420:

I fail to see how attacking one part of Canada's economy will be beneficial to the whole of Canada's economy.

We will only ever be as strong as our weakest link, and if we insist on pulling others down instead of raising ourselves up, we will be weak indeed.

I fully understand that Ontario and Alberta are world's apart, but why is Alberta's manufacturing not suffering to the extent that Ontario's is? We both produce products that face international competition? (This is a serious question.)

That goes both ways. Alberta is the strongest link, and if it's strength comes from impoverishing other parts of Canada that doesn't make us strong either. See Dutch disease.

[andyt]

mentalfloss mentalfloss:

andyt andyt:

Dutch disease. Could've had Norway health, but we're not smart enough.

It's totally the dutch disease. I'm not sure why the media hasn't caught on to this yet.

Because that would be bad form - gotta cheerlead.

[BeaverFever]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

It's pretty straight foreward. Match up 'manufacturing' with 'exports' by province. Since stats on interprovincial trade seem to be hard to find or non existant, take the two and find the difference. That's a rough estimate of manufacturing goods that weren't exported. So it's a rough idea of the value of interprovncial trade. You'll see that number rising from 2007 to 2010. And which provinces are the ones with the economies to import goods?

That's some pretty weak logic. I'll wager alot of that stays in Ontario and Quebec. In fact I'm sure I read recently that the massively overwhelming majority of Ontario provicial exports go to the US and Quebec. Alberta is only 4 million people after all.

[DrCaleb]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

It's pretty straight foreward. Match up 'manufacturing' with 'exports' by province. Since stats on interprovincial trade seem to be hard to find or non existant, take the two and find the difference. That's a rough estimate of manufacturing goods that weren't exported. So it's a rough idea of the value of interprovncial trade. You'll see that number rising from 2007 to 2010. And which provinces are the ones with the economies to import goods?

That's some pretty weak logic. I'll wager alot of that stays in Ontario and Quebec. In fact I'm sure I read recently that the massively overwhelming majority of Ontario provicial exports go to the US and Quebec. Alberta is only 4 million people after all.

Alberta might be only 4 million, but there are 3 Western provinces and 2 Territories. We now outnumber Ontairo as of the last Census.

If there were better statistics, we'd have a better picture. (40% of all trucks sold in Canada are sold in Alberta). Oil production needs steel, tools and trucks. Where else do we get them, but Ontario? Yea, some cheap chinese crap steel is imported, but companies are finding substandard is not always cheaper.

[andyt]

Certainly can't build a Canadian economy based on supplying the needs of Alberta.

[DrCaleb]

andyt andyt:

Certainly can't build a Canadian economy based on supplying the needs of Alberta.

Heaven forbid we should trade with other provinces. Instead, we'll just ship our stuff south, or to Asia. That would be best for Canada.

[andyt]

Caleb - I didn't think you'd go in for that sort of reducto ad absurdum stuff. We should do a lot more to lower trading barriers between provinces. But it would not be enough to make much of an economy. I can't really think of any economy that is rich mostly trading amongst itself. So we need national strategies that maximize Canada's interests instead of one province over another. Whether that one province was Ontario or is now Alberta.

[peck420]

andyt,

The idea isn't to get rich selling internally. The idea is to maximize the best of each province to increase our competitiveness in the international market.

Whether we like it or not, our only real hope for economic survival, in the future, is through large scale cooperation amongst all Canadians.

Even then, we will need some serious dedication and ingenuity to maintain par with the world. We are just too small of a market to survive as independent provinces.

[andyt]

peck420 peck420:

andyt,

The idea isn't to get rich selling internally. The idea is to maximize the best of each province to increase our competitiveness in the international market.

Whether we like it or not, our only real hope for economic survival, in the future, is through large scale cooperation amongst all Canadians.

Even then, we will need some serious dedication and ingenuity to maintain par with the world. We are just too small of a market to survive as independent provinces.

I absolutely agree. But that might mean at times things are done that are to Alberta's disadvantage but overall a greater benefit to Canada. We can't just rely on Alberta's oil exports to run Canada - see Dutch disease.

There are many small countries that do very well. Norway, say. Unlike us tho, they pull together as a country, not competing provinces. We need to find a way to produce value added products in this country, or we are well and truly fucked.

[DrCaleb]

Andy, you need your sarcasm detector retuned. Why would I go from promoting to decrying interprovincial trade?

And... what Peck said. We have what other Canadians want. Let's trade! We have beef and pork, PEI likes BBQ. We have grains, BC has hydro power . . .

[andyt]

I don't see where you went to decrying interprovincial trade. You seem to be trying to make the case that interprovincial trade is sufficient to build a Canadian economy. Or I'm totally misunderstanding what you're saying.

But even the term interprovincial trade shows the problem we've got. We're supposed to be one country, not 10+ different fiefdoms that deign to actually trade with each other. We have more interprovincial trade barriers than Canada has with some countries - how stupid is that.

[peck420]

andyt andyt:

We have more interprovincial trade barriers than Canada has with some countries - how stupid is that.

No, 'we' don't.

B.C., Alberta, and Saskatchewan have removed most of the barriers between us. And the agreement is open to other provinces (of course of limited use if the provinces in between don't sign as well).

As Dr. C stated above, Redford (and Stelmach at the end) are pushing for open economies between all the provinces.

[DrCaleb]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

andyt andyt:

Certainly can't build a Canadian economy based on supplying the needs of Alberta.

Heaven forbid we should trade with other provinces. Instead, we'll just ship our stuff south, or to Asia. That would be best for Canada.

andyt andyt:

Caleb - I didn't think you'd go in for that sort of reducto ad absurdum stuff. We should do a lot more to lower trading barriers between provinces.

andyt andyt:

I don't see where you went to decrying interprovincial trade. You seem to be trying to make the case that interprovincial trade is sufficient to build a Canadian economy. Or I'm totally misunderstanding what you're saying.

???

Or am I reading you wrong?

[andyt]

Probably we both are. I took your comment to be making the case that interprovincial trade is sufficient to make an economy in Canada. That we don't need to concern ourselves about international trade. Except for Alberta oil of course. The point being that we can't just say everything is fine in Canada on average, when it's really all about Alberta oil, which as McGuinty is saying may harm other regions. I didn't agree when our Canadian policy was all about Ontario. I don't agree now that it's all about Alberta, and I wouldn't agree, I like to think, if it was all about BC. I want to live in a nation, not a collection of provinces.

[bootlegga]

peck420 peck420:

I fail to see how attacking one part of Canada's economy will be beneficial to the whole of Canada's economy.

We will only ever be as strong as our weakest link, and if we insist on pulling others down instead of raising ourselves up, we will be weak indeed.

I fully understand that Ontario and Alberta are world's apart, but why is Alberta's manufacturing not suffering to the extent that Ontario's is? We both produce products that face international competition? (This is a serious question.)

+5

I find this ridiculous - you hardly ever hear about Pennsylvania blaming the loss of the steel industry on Texas. Canadians need to remember that we are CANADIANS first, and Albertans/Ontarians second.

In response to your question, I'd guess most of the manufacturing Alberta does is either for domestic use or used in the oil sands, so it doesn't face the same international competition manufacturers in the Ontario face.

However, oil companies don't just use Alberta-based manufacturers to produce what they need in the oil sands, they use the most competitive manufacturers - irregardless of where they are. They want the best product for the best price - just like any consumer does. For example, I know for a fact that Petro-Canada used a power plant built in Japan as part of their upgrade in Ft Mac, but they also buy all sorts of other goods from all over North America too.