[Lemmy]

Not quite. Provinces that had surpluses had them because they downloaded also, onto the municipalities.

[bootlegga]

Tricks Tricks:

bootlegga bootlegga:

Yeah, that budget surplus sure did a lot of damage to our financial picture - good thing Harper and Deficit Jim have put us back in the minus column where we rightfully belong!

How's every other country in the world doing?

Oh right.

Calling him partisan while having this statement in the same post is kind of silly. Are they financial gods? Of course not, but they aren't doing half bad considering the U.S. and the EU are rapidly falling into oblivion.

Fair enough. My statement was entirely sarcastic, not partisan, but to make that 100% clear I probably should have used an emoticon.

Tricks Tricks:

bootlegga bootlegga:

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Spending went up under Chretien by 10% and another 10.4% under Martin in 2004 alone and they all had their unique challenges. Chretien and the Liberals inherited a mess from Mulroney and Harper got stuck with the World-wide recession.

And yet Chretien and Martin had surpluses...hmmm.

The GST tax cut, while nice, shouldn't have happened. Harper made the mistake of cutting close to $15 Billion in tax revenues right before a major recession hit. That would have made a big difference in the bottom line these last few years.

He should have consulted his crystal ball?

Either that or he should have used his education (in Economics no less). The US went into a recession in early 2008 and as most every Canadian knows, when the US goes into a recession, so do we. The first cut in 2006 was praised by most, but even some people from the Canadian Taxpayer Federation questioned the cut in 2008;

$1:

The current situation, Chapman said, can be compared to a worker who gets a raise and immediately spends the extra funds, rather than saving "for a rainy day."

That rainy day is now, he said. And partly because the surplus was returned to tax payers in the form of the GST cut, and not put aside for a future storm, Canada faces a deficit situation.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/WinnipegHome/ ... z1gcesk9r6

Irregardless, my point was not that he cut taxes, but that it was in cutting the WRONG tax.

First off, by cutting a consumption tax, he helped the wealthier part of society more than he did the rest of us. In addition, because the GST is a public, in-your-face tax that one has to pay everyday on a wide variety of purchases, it was impossible for him to bump it back up when the recession hit. However, had he cut income taxes and then raised them again after the recession, most Canadians wouldn't have even noticed.

[bootlegga]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

bootlegga bootlegga:

That's all I'm asking Harper to do. If he wants to be considered a great PM, then he needs to step up. Otherwise, he can join R.B. Bennett and others in the dustbin of history as leaders who weren't up to the task at hand.

I'm glad we can have a discussion and we can agree on some points and not on others, but I don't like how you brush massive government change off as "well, the other guy did it, so can you".

Times are VERY different than when Chretien and Mulroney were in office and it's naive to think that a solution is just a matter of Harper finding his balls and making a decision to gut the public service.

Our economy is on the edge of taking a huge shit...with the EU in shambles and the American economy in the toilet times are very different and I know the solution to our debt must be quite the task.

I agree times are different - maybe Harper needs to come up with a different solution. But hoping that some the economy will magically rebound in two or three years (especially with the way bad news just seems to keep appearing out of nowhere all the time) is just wishful thinking. This recession/depression could last for years, although I hope to God it doesn't.

I don't care what his plan is, but IMHO, he needs a better one than the economy will rebound in 2014-15 and the deficit will magically disappear. If he doesn't want to take a page from the Liberal's handbook (I don't understand why not - he's done it a number of times in the past few years), then his Cabinet needs to get to work and come up with something - anything. We need leadership right now, not hope.

Slashing the federal budget was anathema to most Liberals, but they did it anyways. Maybe it's time for the Conservatives to think about eliminating planned corporate tax cuts or even hiking the GST by 1%.

[OnTheIce]

bootlegga bootlegga:

First off, by cutting a consumption tax, he helped the wealthier part of society more than he did the rest of us. In addition, because the GST is a public, in-your-face tax that one has to pay everyday on a wide variety of purchases, it was impossible for him to bump it back up when the recession hit. However, had he cut income taxes and then raised them again after the recession, most Canadians wouldn't have even noticed.

Sorry boots, I don't agree.

Poor people or those living close to the poverty line have to eat and buy stuff for their children. The GST helps those people too, maybe even moreso than an income tax cut.

Many low income families don't make enough to pay income taxes anyways, and when they do pay, it's often offset by deductions

$1:

I agree times are different - maybe Harper needs to come up with a different solution. But hoping that some the economy will magically rebound in two or three years (especially with the way bad news just seems to keep appearing out of nowhere all the time) is just wishful thinking. This recession/depression could last for years, although I hope to God it doesn't.

I don't care what his plan is, but IMHO, he needs a better one than the economy will rebound in 2014-15 and the deficit will magically disappear. If he doesn't want to take a page from the Liberal's handbook (I don't understand why not - he's done it a number of times in the past few years), then his Cabinet needs to get to work and come up with something - anything. We need leadership right now, not hope.

Slashing the federal budget was anathema to most Liberals, but they did it anyways. Maybe it's time for the Conservatives to think about eliminating planned corporate tax cuts or even hiking the GST by 1%.

With Canada hanging on the edge of prosperity or disaster, considering what's going on in the World, I think it would be a terrible idea to start putting thousands of people out of work then raising the taxes on everyone else.

Like it or not, but our prosperity lies in the hands of our trading partners and other Countries around the World. This is not a problem Harper can solve but raising taxes and gutting the public service. He needs a strong World economy to keep us on our feet.

[andyt]

Poor people don't pay GST on food, nor does anybody else. The feds already send out a cheque to low income people to offset the GST. Raise the GST and send out a bit larger check is all. Also get rid of the crap tax deductions like for transit passes and sports equipment. Neither makes them affordable for truly poor people, it's just rewarding the middle class for behavior they engage in anyway. Lots of deductions like that in the tax code that should be eliminated. Then go to a more progressive tax system, with lower rates than now on low incomes, and higher rates on higher incomes. This will bring in more tax revenue and give low income people a bit more money in their pocket. And raise the corporate rate back to what it was. Waiting for the world to come knocking at our door to lift us out of deficit is a mugs game - looks very unlikely. And as the budget watchdog says, Canada is unsustainable. Harper has said he wants to make more radical cuts to govt spending, but as usual that will just fuck over the low income people while protecting the rich.

[peck420]

Andyt,

That would be pretty counter productive.

Removing the tax deductions that help the middle class will do nothing but create a larger problem.

Those are the people that use transit and sports related deductions.

The wealthy...well.. they don't use public transit all that much and I don't think they care about the sports deductions all that much either as they tend to have fewer children per household.

I don't know what the solution is, but making more of the middle class into the low income class is probably not it.

[andyt]

The middle class will become low income because you remove some bullshit tax deductions? Come on. How many people do you think the transit pass deduction go out of their cars, the stated aim of the deduction? 3? People were either already using transit or wouldn't start just because of the deduction. As I said, lower the tax rate on lower incomes then progressively raise it on higher ones. Don't know what your definition of middle class is, but I would see a median wage earner stay about equal or even drop a bit in taxes in what I'm proposing vs what's happening now.

I guess this is the problem - the middle class, while believing they'll be rich very soon, is actually worried about being one step away from poverty, and is willing to kick the actual poor in the teeth just to try to maintain their position. Why not look up where the big money is and use some of that, instead of always trying to cut the poorest?

[OnTheIce]

peck420 peck420:

Andyt,

That would be pretty counter productive.

Removing the tax deductions that help the middle class will do nothing but create a larger problem.

Those are the people that use transit and sports related deductions.

The wealthy...well.. they don't use public transit all that much and I don't think they care about the sports deductions all that much either as they tend to have fewer children per household.

I don't know what the solution is, but making more of the middle class into the low income class is probably not it.

Take from the middle class family with two kids to help the poor, in turn taking that middle class family from a barely comfortable life, down to the level of those they're trying to help.

Poverty is so easy to solve. If only the government read forums all day, they'd have all the answers.

[OnTheIce]

andyt andyt:

The middle class will become low income because you remove some bullshit tax deductions? Come on. How many people do you think the transit pass deduction go out of their cars, the stated aim of the deduction? 3? People were either already using transit or wouldn't start just because of the deduction. As I said, lower the tax rate on lower incomes then progressively raise it on higher ones. Don't know what your definition of middle class is, but I would see a median wage earner stay about equal or even drop a bit in taxes in what I'm proposing vs what's happening now.

I guess this is the problem - the middle class, while believing they'll be rich very soon, is actually worried about being one step away from poverty, and is willing to kick the actual poor in the teeth just to try to maintain their position. Why not look up where the big money is and use some of that, instead of always trying to cut the poorest?

And those middle class people, what do you think they do what the money they save?

They re-spend it on other things they need and the cycle of tax collection continues and the economy keeps rolling.

I'm going to get back $500 or so for my son's hockey this season....and I'll be sure to spend that and put the money back into the economy and into real jobs not into the hands of the government.

[peck420]

Andyt,

Many in the 'middle class' are there, but just barely.

Making that class any smaller than it already is will not bode well for the future of Canada.

If I was going to target any 'loopholes' it would be in capital gains tax and in TFSA'a.

Both of those should have finite limits, ie: if the produce more income than your primary taxable 'income' source, they will be taxed as your primary income soucre at full taxable rates, etc.

The vast majority of people that are making more income through TFSA'a and investment portfolios are the wealthy.

I say this openly aware that I do not know what the complete ramifications that something like this would create.

[andyt]

peck420 peck420:

Andyt,

Many in the 'middle class' are there, but just barely.

Making that class any smaller than it already is will not bode well for the future of Canada.

If I was going to target any 'loopholes' it would be in capital gains tax and in TFSA'a.

Both of those should have finite limits, ie: if the produce more income than your primary taxable 'income' source, they will be taxed as your primary income soucre at full taxable rates, etc.

The vast majority of people that are making more income through TFSA'a and investment portfolios are the wealthy.

I say this openly aware that I do not know what the complete ramifications that something like this would create.

But you're not reading my whole argument. As I said, if we have more progressive taxation at the top end, rates can stay the same or lower at the lower end. So people who are barely in the middle class will probably get a tax reduction. People at the top end of the middle class, they can afford to pay a bit more.

Agree about all the tax free accounts. Even RRSP's. Just put the money into CPP. Many people are realizing that if they only have a few meager RRSP's, when it comes time to draw from them it raises their income over the threshold where govt supplements their CPP - so they don't wind up any further ahead.

[andyt]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

andyt andyt:

The middle class will become low income because you remove some bullshit tax deductions? Come on. How many people do you think the transit pass deduction go out of their cars, the stated aim of the deduction? 3? People were either already using transit or wouldn't start just because of the deduction. As I said, lower the tax rate on lower incomes then progressively raise it on higher ones. Don't know what your definition of middle class is, but I would see a median wage earner stay about equal or even drop a bit in taxes in what I'm proposing vs what's happening now.

I guess this is the problem - the middle class, while believing they'll be rich very soon, is actually worried about being one step away from poverty, and is willing to kick the actual poor in the teeth just to try to maintain their position. Why not look up where the big money is and use some of that, instead of always trying to cut the poorest?

And those middle class people, what do you think they do what the money they save?

They re-spend it on other things they need and the cycle of tax collection continues and the economy keeps rolling.

I'm going to get back $500 or so for my son's hockey this season....and I'll be sure to spend that and put the money back into the economy and into real jobs not into the hands of the government.

So you wouldn't let your son play hockey if you didn't get that $500 back? If you say money you get back gets put into the economy, then why take it from you in the first place? By that argument we should have no taxes at all, so all the money flows into real jobs, not the hands of the govt. If you say that's absurd, well that's what it's all about - how much for the govt to take and who to take it from. Bribing you with a bit of your own money for something you would do anyways makes no sense at all.

But I guess that's part of what's playing out here - people want these little bonuses, not because it makes a hill of beans diff to their finances, but because they feel they're being stroked, the govt is telling them they're good people.

[bootlegga]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

bootlegga bootlegga:

First off, by cutting a consumption tax, he helped the wealthier part of society more than he did the rest of us. In addition, because the GST is a public, in-your-face tax that one has to pay everyday on a wide variety of purchases, it was impossible for him to bump it back up when the recession hit. However, had he cut income taxes and then raised them again after the recession, most Canadians wouldn't have even noticed.

Sorry boots, I don't agree.

Poor people or those living close to the poverty line have to eat and buy stuff for their children. The GST helps those people too, maybe even moreso than an income tax cut.

Many low income families don't make enough to pay income taxes anyways, and when they do pay, it's often offset by deductions

The poor get GST cheques to offset the tax. And as Andy notes, nobody pays GST on food. But let's compare how much GST really affects people. Three people, one from each income class (poor, middle-class and wealthy) go to a dealership to buy a car.

The poor person looks at the prices and either doesn't buy one, or buys an old beater from the used car lot for $1000 because that's all they can afford. GST paid - $50.

The middle class gal looks at the cars and decides on a sedan - price $30,000. GST paid - $1500.

The rich guy goes in and has a quandry - do I buy the SUV or a sedan? He settles on the SUV - this is Canada after all and pays $75,000. GST paid - $3750.

Mind you this is all calculated at the current 5% GST rate. Had the rate stayed at 7%, the GST paid would have been $70, $2100, & $5250. So the poor dude saved himself $20, the middle class gal saved $600, and the wealthy dude saved $1500.

The same three people go out house shopping.

The poor person instantly realizes that they can't afford to own their own house, so they'll have to be content renting. GST paid - $0.

Th middle-class gal does some shopping and finds a house that she and her husband can afford - $350,000. GST paid - $17,500

The wealthy guy hires a builder to build him a modest 6000 sq ft house - price tag $1,000,000. GST paid - $50,000.

Again, change the rates back to the old 7%, and the poor guy still pays nothing, the middle class gal pays $24,500 (saving $6000 with the new rate), while the rich guy pays $70,000 (saving a whopping $20,000 with the new rate).

See how the GST really affects people? That why cutting the GST helped the rich FAR more than it ever did the poor. And don't think for a minute that Harper and the Conservatives weren't aware of this when they cut it.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

$1:

I agree times are different - maybe Harper needs to come up with a different solution. But hoping that some the economy will magically rebound in two or three years (especially with the way bad news just seems to keep appearing out of nowhere all the time) is just wishful thinking. This recession/depression could last for years, although I hope to God it doesn't.

I don't care what his plan is, but IMHO, he needs a better one than the economy will rebound in 2014-15 and the deficit will magically disappear. If he doesn't want to take a page from the Liberal's handbook (I don't understand why not - he's done it a number of times in the past few years), then his Cabinet needs to get to work and come up with something - anything. We need leadership right now, not hope.

Slashing the federal budget was anathema to most Liberals, but they did it anyways. Maybe it's time for the Conservatives to think about eliminating planned corporate tax cuts or even hiking the GST by 1%.

With Canada hanging on the edge of prosperity or disaster, considering what's going on in the World, I think it would be a terrible idea to start putting thousands of people out of work then raising the taxes on everyone else.

Like it or not, but our prosperity lies in the hands of our trading partners and other Countries around the World. This is not a problem Harper can solve but raising taxes and gutting the public service. He needs a strong World economy to keep us on our feet.

There are lots of ways to cut spending without laying people off. Get rid of bonuses, institute salary deductions, cut department operational expenses by 5%, postpone/scale back future purchases, etc. If, as you suggest, we are entirely dependent on our trading partners, then maybe we need to lower tariffs and quotas to spur trade, or sign new free trade agreements.

And I said tax hikes might be necessary - they're supposedly smart guys - surely they can come up with something better than I can.

I expect our politicians to be proactive, not reactive. Basically, I want them to DO SOMETHING, not just sit back and hope a gold nugget the size of Texas falls out of the sky so they can balance the budget.

[peck420]

Andyt,

I understand where you are coming from, I just think we differ on where to go.

I think that if some of the larger loopholes were closed we wouldn't need to change the current tax structure or rates, or remove any of the deductions that are beneficial to the low income and middle class families.

You believe that it still wouldn't be enough and that we should further raise the rates on those that are upper-middle and high income, correct?

[OnTheIce]

andyt andyt:

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

andyt andyt:

The middle class will become low income because you remove some bullshit tax deductions? Come on. How many people do you think the transit pass deduction go out of their cars, the stated aim of the deduction? 3? People were either already using transit or wouldn't start just because of the deduction. As I said, lower the tax rate on lower incomes then progressively raise it on higher ones. Don't know what your definition of middle class is, but I would see a median wage earner stay about equal or even drop a bit in taxes in what I'm proposing vs what's happening now.

I guess this is the problem - the middle class, while believing they'll be rich very soon, is actually worried about being one step away from poverty, and is willing to kick the actual poor in the teeth just to try to maintain their position. Why not look up where the big money is and use some of that, instead of always trying to cut the poorest?

And those middle class people, what do you think they do what the money they save?

They re-spend it on other things they need and the cycle of tax collection continues and the economy keeps rolling.

I'm going to get back $500 or so for my son's hockey this season....and I'll be sure to spend that and put the money back into the economy and into real jobs not into the hands of the government.

So you wouldn't let your son play hockey if you didn't get that $500 back? If you say money you get back gets put into the economy, then why take it from you in the first place? By that argument we should have no taxes at all, so all the money flows into real jobs, not the hands of the govt. If you say that's absurd, well that's what it's all about - how much for the govt to take and who to take it from. Bribing you with a bit of your own money for something you would do anyways makes no sense at all.

But I guess that's part of what's playing out here - people want these little bonuses, not because it makes a hill of beans diff to their finances, but because they feel they're being stroked, the govt is telling them they're good people.

I'm not a father who's on the fence financially although I know of some parents that do rely on the tax credit to help pay for their son/daughters activities. I just spend the refund when I get it.

I notice you appear to be for tax credits, like the GST credit, but you have an issue with credits that specifically apply to the middle class.

What's your problem with the middle class? Should we not be entitled to a little tax break now and again too?

andyt andyt:

But I guess that's part of what's playing out here - people want these little bonuses, not because it makes a hill of beans diff to their finances, but because they feel they're being stroked, the govt is telling them they're good people.

Yet you're the guy that wants to raise wages by mere cents because it will make a difference. Right?

Apparently the only people who matter to you are those who live at or below poverty. The others should be lucky they're alive and working and should pay for those who have less.