[Yogi]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Yogi Yogi:

SprCForr SprCForr:

The Challenger Sqn flew 170 hrs last year EMPTY. The personnel must maintain proficiency and if some of those hours can get used in shuttling the CDS, PM, GG or whoever to various places, all the better.

Whoa whoa - easy there big fella. Can't run around with an agenda if there's logic about that'll undermine it.

Stand down and let the foamers foam.

In this instance the 'foamers' are the MAJORITY of Canadians!


Although I think that ALL govt in 'management' are 'mismanaging 'my' money. the topic of this thread, if I'm not mistaken, is about Col Walts' BLATANT MISUSE in as much as he used a Challenger FOR PERSONAL HOLIDAYS!

I guess I missed the poll done on this issue...[/quote]


...as well as a trip to join his family on a cruise vacation in the Caribbean.

Passenger logs obtained by CTV News under the Access to Information Act show that in January 2010, Natynczyk used a CC-144 Challenger to fly to St. Maarten Island in the Caribbean to begin a vacation. He attended a repatriation ceremony a day earlier in Trenton, Ont., and missed his flight for a cruise holiday with his family.

The VIP aircraft flew Natynczyk to St. Maarten on January 4, the log showed. After dropping the defence chief off for his vacation, the jet left the island 75 minutes later -- empty -- to return to its base in Ottawa.

The Challenger cost $10,104 per flying hour to operate in 2009/2010, National Defence figures show. At 9.2 hours, the return trip between the St. Maarten Island and Canada cost $92,956.80.

[Freakinoldguy]

The big problem for the CDS and the Military as a whole is the perception rightly or wrongly of the misuse of Military resources for personal gain.

We went through this whole scenario once before and I guess the public hasn't forgotten things like "Tarnished Brass" and other revelations about how the upper echelon lived a lifestyle most of us could only aspire to.

The best thing the CDS could do is keep his mouth closed, pay back the cost of the flight like the PM mentioned and move on. All things which would go alongway in reasuring the populace that we haven't slipped back into the culture of entitlement that NDHQ assured us had been eradicated.

[PENATRATOR]

The actual flying hour costs have been explained by many, pilots get paid flying or not. They require hours in the air to maintain proficiency and quals, as do the crew. The wages are being factored into these costs by the media. What would people say if they look at it from another angle, a pilot has the day off so he goes golfing but is still collecting his wage and air crew allowance? I think pilots in the air is a better way to spend tax dollars. Oh the humanity

[SprCForr]

For those unaware:

Every CF member is entitled to a specific amount of leave each year. If a CF member makes any leave arrangements that require payment, deposits, or any other financial guarantee and due to Service requirements they must be cancelled, then the member is entitled to full reimbursement. As soon as the obligation that required the presence of the member is fufilled, they are entitled to proceed to their destination without delay and any resulting costs are at the public expense.

Keep the above in mind. If you have any experience of booking last minute flights to exotic vacation destinations, all the better.
___________________________________

I used a chunk of quote from another post (in this case Yogi's which was handily just a couple above this) to illustrate my point about the BS media "reporting" in this.

$1:

The Challenger cost $10,104 per flying hour to operate in 2009/2010, National Defence figures show. At 9.2 hours, the return trip between the St. Maarten Island and Canada cost $92,956.80.

Ever see an actual breakdown of those "flying hour to operate" costs anywhere in the media? No, you haven't. Know why? They'd indicate the shallowness of the media, the laziness of the "journalist" and the pathetic attempt to manufacture a "scandal" they can capitalize on. The regularly requested Challenger Sqn flight manifest gets FOIP'd and scanned to see if they can play "gotcha" on someone.

$1:

Some nitwit at CTV: "Say... CF is under a budget cut, as we just reported...


...and here's the Challenger manifest (a real gold mine for fat cat "extravagant use"! w00t!) and CDS is flying the Challenger...

Hey Jody! Break out that box of wheels! We gots us a scandal to build! Call marketing!"

Consider that the cost of the fuel for that trip as well as the maintenance costs is part of the Sqn yearly budget. As well, that "flying hour to operate" cost includes crew wages, maintainer wages, the hangar space, the cost of the utilities in that hangar, the share of the "in lieu of taxes" paid yearly on the hangar etc etc. Everything the plane uses, everyone who has anything to do with the plane (directly and indirectly) is all part of that so called "flying hour to operate" as reported by that paragon of research, fact checking and no agenda media.

Realize this: That flight time is going to happen. Full or empty to them matters not. Keeping in mind the fact that 170 hours of Challenger squadron flight time last year was spent flying empty due to crew certification requirements.

You just been given a shitload more info that the media didn't bother with, yet directly affects how the "story" is presented by the media.

Tl:Dr - Service held him back. Service has to get him back. Plane that has to fly anyway, available and empty...

Sorry Gunnair. I admit, I'm weak...

[Benn]

I get the security issue, he should have a private jet, however for personal trips he should reimburse the government for the price of what he'd pay flying commercial at least. Government policy (roughly) on dealing with public servants who miss trips or flights due to overtime or call ins etc is to reimburse them the lost money and cost of re-booking.

If the PM is reimbursing commercial fair price to the government when he uses the private planes then this should be the standard.

I get that if the plane is flying anyway and is empty then it is no more cost to the taxpayers (actually it would be more for fuel but...) however when Air Canada has to take off with an empty seat they don't give it out for free. If there is a chance the taxpayer can get some money back for the previously empty flight then they should. The PM understands this, his subordinates are not above him, obviously.

$1:

"was authorized to use a Challenger aircraft to join his family, who were already sailing aboard a cruise ship in the Caribbean."

The trip, Cyr says, was "not deemed to be a personal trip as the vacation delay was service-related."

Natynczyk's spokesman added that the trip allowed the defense chief to spend Christmas with his family for the first time in three years.

It's part of the job. I work with guys who have not been at home for three Christmas celebrations due to work, no one's giving them a bouns for their troubles. When we were hired we were told we'd miss holidays and we all signed the subsequent letter of offer.

If you are not willing to do a job and take what comes with it then don't take the job! Drives me nuts when people take a job then turn around wanting more money or perks for working conditions they were fully aware of when they took the job.

[bootlegga]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Another out of touch post from Yogi...."I'm a dude with a 9 year old truck so our high ranking officials should be a cheap-ass like me."

[bootlegga]

Of course most of us would like to see costs come down, but I don't see the big deal here.

The optics are kind of bad (like Harper using a government plane to watch the Stanley Cup Finals), but in reality, there isn't much ground for complaint here. His vacation was delayed by his job and his employer made good on their policy of making sure he got to go on at least of his vacation.

He could probably 'make it go away' if he ponied up a few bucks like Harper did during the playoffs in a similar situation. If he's not willing to make a goodwill gesture, then he'll just have to take it. If I was him, I would probably just suck it up and ignore it because it'll go away in a week or two when the media/Opposition find something else that pisses them off.

[BeaverFever]

As I said before the amount of the "loss" i.e. improperly used resources is not alot...but in terms of strengthening policy, preventing abuse and "setting an example" some reforms should be made.

A family vacation, IMO, is not justification for using a corporate jet, even if the vacation was delayed for business responsibilities. At the very most, the government should have reimbursed him for the cost of the next available commercial flight and should have given him extra day or two of leave for the delay. A commercial flight, even at first class fares, would have been thousands less than the cost of a private jet. After all, without that control policy, what's to prevent future leaders at "fort fumble" from gaming the system and scheduling their vacations around public obligations in order to take advantage of the free fist-class flight in their own private jet?

And whie leaders should take advantage of maintenance and training flights where possible, maintenance flights are usually limited to performing certian performance maneuvers at various altitudes, then returning to base...not more than a couple of hours and usually there is good reason for not travelling too far.

[Regina]

Yeah we should just let them sit there so they can be tested from time to time.
They were purchased for that reason and that's what they are used for. We have C130s for hauling troops.

[SprCForr]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

And whie leaders should take advantage of maintenance and training flights where possible, maintenance flights are usually limited to performing certian performance maneuvers at various altitudes, then returning to base...not more than a couple of hours and usually there is good reason for not travelling too far.

Sorry, but there's more to it than that and FWIW, you're describing a test flight.

[BeaverFever]

That's all maintenance flights are...test flights. I left crew profinciency training out of it, as I don't know what the realities of proficiency are in the RCAF, i.e. how may extra hours/flights an aircrew may need over and above their regular duties.

[PENATRATOR]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

That's all maintenance flights are...test flights. I left crew profinciency training out of it, as I don't know what the realities of proficiency are in the RCAF, i.e. how may extra hours/flights an aircrew may need over and above their regular duties.

The defense rests

[BeaverFever]

Rests on what? The possiblity that the some of the Challenger Crew weren't getting the minimum experience from regular duties, and that the General's personal flights coincided with their training events?

[PENATRATOR]

Man, you don't get it. Several people here who HAVE an idea of how a squadron operates have been completely clear about how crews maintain proficiency, you self admit, you don't know, that's fine, but maybe listen to what they are saying just for a second. Hell I managed to get back from Ottawa to Halifax via Greenwood several years ago because an Aurora had the room and was going that way. CF Pilots and crew ALWAYS are maintaing their proficiency. Getting in the air does that. It kills 2 birds with one stone.

[Regina]

Not to mention training new ones.........which there is a shortage of.