[desertdude]

Well thats the problem isn't it, you folk just don't get it. There never was any significant or even mentionable tourism from Canada so UAE doesn't give a toss about Canadian tourist dollars because there wasn't much if any to begin with.

Seems like many folk here have an superiority complex over other nationalities or at the very least blinded by patriotism. The expectation that a small country like the UAE must alway do everything to accomodate Canada in return for nothing is apparently a symptom of a broader attitude problem.

I don't say that the way UAE reacted was right at all but not seeing any fault with your own behaviour is what is really surprinsing. "negotiations" had been on for a long time about these landing rights, and landing rights to what. Direct i.e non stop flights to the UAE a sector neither Air Canada or any other airline was servicing or has any future plans to. Can't even call it protectionism as there was no direct on indirect competetion on this route. Unreasonable at the very least.

Air Canada would have lost nothing even if they granted UAE 20 directs flights daily. UAE acted immature,sure. Was Canada being unreasonable ? YES.

They currently have three flights a week and now made sure anyone that needs to travel to UAE fies either Emirates or Etihad, unless they want long stopovers plus the expensive visa's if not arranged by these two airlines.

Looks like game, set and match to me.

[ShepherdsDog]

On an aside, Taiwanese are now allowed to travel to Canada for 6 months without requiring a visa. That's got a lot of people I know here excited.

[bootlegga]

desertdude desertdude:

Air Canada would have lost nothing even if they granted UAE 20 directs flights daily. UAE acted immature,sure. Was Canada being unreasonable ? YES.

They currently have three flights a week and now made sure anyone that needs to travel to UAE fies either Emirates or Etihad, unless they want long stopovers plus the expensive visa's if not arranged by these two airlines.

Looks like game, set and match to me.

Sure Air Canada would have lost something - both people connecting to the UAE and the landing slots at Vancouver and Toronto airports, which are in short supply.

If UAE airlines really wanted to get those slots, they would have negotiated like businessmen, not thugs. Instead they tried using blackmail and we told them to fuck off.

[ShepherdsDog]

Obviously you can't take the bandit out of the dunes.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

desertdude desertdude:

Well thats the problem isn't it, you folk just don't get it. There never was any significant or even mentionable tourism from Canada so UAE doesn't give a toss about Canadian tourist dollars because there wasn't much if any to begin with.

Seems like many folk here have an superiority complex over other nationalities or at the very least blinded by patriotism. The expectation that a small country like the UAE must alway do everything to accomodate Canada in return for nothing is apparently a symptom of a broader attitude problem.

I don't say that the way UAE reacted was right at all but not seeing any fault with your own behaviour is what is really surprinsing. "negotiations" had been on for a long time about these landing rights, and landing rights to what. Direct i.e non stop flights to the UAE a sector neither Air Canada or any other airline was servicing or has any future plans to. Can't even call it protectionism as there was no direct on indirect competetion on this route. Unreasonable at the very least.

Air Canada would have lost nothing even if they granted UAE 20 directs flights daily. UAE acted immature,sure. Was Canada being unreasonable ? YES.

They currently have three flights a week and now made sure anyone that needs to travel to UAE fies either Emirates or Etihad, unless they want long stopovers plus the expensive visa's if not arranged by these two airlines.

Looks like game, set and match to me.

Vancouver and TO are the 2 busiest airports in Canada with limited slots. Since there is such an extreme lack of Canadian tourist dollars in the UAE as you claim, then why would should Canada give a shit about providng slots for an airline that belongs to a nation that very, VERY few Canadians visit?

[desertdude]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Sure Air Canada would have lost something - both people connecting to the UAE and the landing slots at Vancouver and Toronto airports, which are in short supply.

Again "direct" flight no stopovers, and this is pretty much talk of teh town here and the local boards and papers are buzzing with it. I have yet to meet a Canadian who would choose Air Canada over Emirates and big majority did, so these folk just pay $75 extra for the Visa for a hassle free direct filght.

bootlegga bootlegga:

If UAE airlines really wanted to get those slots, they would have negotiated like businessmen, not thugs. Instead they tried using blackmail and we told them to fuck off.

Again not seeing any fault of your own, talks had been going on quite some time some inside sources say almost since the begining of 2010 but Canada was just being a stubbourn mule and unreasonable. Again that mentality comes into play that a small country like the UAE must alway do everything to accomodate Canada in return for nothing. For all the trade thrown its ways, preferred visitor status, use of free airspace, military and air base. In return nothing till now, only recently asked for few extra landing slots would not have killed Canada or the failing Air Canada. So who is being unreasonable here.

Like I said Game set and match for UAE and Emirates this time. About time you folk stopped moaning and groaning about this and realise Ottawa was no angle in this one and take your share of the blame and stop acting like the poor innocent victim.

Read some of the comments in this article

http://www.emirates247.com/news/ottawa- ... 0-1.315266

[BartSimpson]

[DrCaleb]

desertdude desertdude:

Again not seeing any fault of your own, talks had been going on quite some time some inside sources say almost since the begining of 2010 but Canada was just being a stubbourn mule and unreasonable. Again that mentality comes into play that a small country like the UAE must alway do everything to accomodate Canada in return for nothing.

You still don't get it do you?

desertdude desertdude:

For all the trade thrown its ways, preferred visitor status, use of free airspace, military and air base. In return nothing till now, only recently asked for few extra landing slots would not have killed Canada or the failing Air Canada. So who is being unreasonable here.

When I do a favour for someone, I expect nothing in return. If a friend says, "I need you to help me move, and to use your truck". If I accept, I'm expecting to pay for fuel on my own dime. It would be nice if he threw me some gas money, and food while I'm moving him. But, I'm not expecting it.

In return for use of airspace, and some land, we gave the UAE protection, with the cost of our soldiers lives. We expected nothing in return, but what we got was a demand for us to give preferential access to an airline, for continued access to airspace and young lives. Severely uncool. It had nothing to do with airlines, it had everything to do with the UAE making demands of us. If we're doing you a favour, demanding things just is not polite. Mixing business and politics - extra not cool.

We don't give a shit about trade or tourism, when we are fighting a war. We gave Qatari airlines the same damn flight rights that Emirates air wanted. It was the impolite manner in which an ultimatum was held over our heads. We do not take kindly to it.

desertdude desertdude:

Like I said Game set and match for UAE and Emirates this time. About time you folk stopped moaning and groaning about this and realise Ottawa was no angle in this one and take your share of the blame and stop acting like the poor innocent victim.

Read some of the comments in this article

And who has overflight rights into Canada again? Not Emirates air. Perhaps Qatari air is nice.

No one has said the UAE was wrong in demanding Canadians get visas to enter the UAE. It's their right, and it's not relevant. As far as Canadian minds are, if they want to demand of Canadians $1000 for a visa we charge $150 for, that's their right. We have no need to visit that badly. Most Canadians are probably completely unaware of this at all.

[BartSimpson]

Dr. C - the thing you're missing is that DD comes from a culture that bargains. While altruism does exist in the sandbox, in general acts of altruism are viewed as foolish if you trade something and get nothing in return.

That's not a Muslim thing as the nice people in Israel do this, too.

Also, in this particular matter Canadians performed that particularly Western bit of psychodrama in thinking that a military issue is separate from a business issue.

All of the rest of the world understands far better than the West that all business is a military and national security concern.

Where Canada went wrong in this was in not acknowledging that the UAE leadership could not come away from the table empty handed. When they asked for landing rights you folks just said no. Had you played the game on the local rules you may have found out that landing rights were the opening bid and that what they really wanted was something else.

[desertdude]

Altruism, sure bart. Canadian troops are fighting the war on their on their own accord or because big daddy USA told them to do so. Which is also doing it for its own personal reasons.

Canada is not there for some kind of great noble mission for the GCC Arab. Kinda like saying we are fighting a war in your region, so you owe us, when the war has nothing to do with them. So to say any of the GCC countries owe it anything for its about 2000 troop contingent in the region fighting an American war is ridiculas.

No other country offered its services to help Canadaian forces in the region, even after they were given a notice to vacate from camp mirage, maybe if for example Qatar is such a good bud it should have aleast given a similar offer. So which other GCC country is Canada now operating out of now. Cyprus.

Nothing in international and diplomatic relations is free, again stop acting like a innocent victim, "we don't care about trade and tourism" We this we that. We, we, we never for a second, hmmm maybe them might also have a point.

"we gave the UAE protection" again we, we, we and really a laughable statement and again that superiority complex as if the entire security of the region depended on Canadian troops when it couldn't be farther than the truth, Canada can take it small contigent back home ( And I bet majority of the Canadian population also wants that )and it would'nt make a differenc to them. The GCC Arabs in bed deep with the Americans and Brits.

The GCC countries after the recent shit stirred up by the Americans in the region now are truly scared of an Iranian threat and want them to stay now. But to say they really care about the tiny platoon of Canadian soilders in the region is far from the truth. They'll just buy a few more Apaches and the Americans will glady send double the number of troops to fill in that space.

Anyways all this is besides the point. The point was Canada managed to tick off the UAE with its unreasonable behaviour and when UAE did the same now they are crying foul.

[DrCaleb]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Where Canada went wrong in this was in not acknowledging that the UAE leadership could not come away from the table empty handed. When they asked for landing rights you folks just said no. Had you played the game on the local rules you may have found out that landing rights were the opening bid and that what they really wanted was something else.

Well, if that then case then, we could only blame negotiators. Having spent little time in the sandbox, I never got to know it's people. Only the ones here, who already understand us. If there is a cultural difference of that magnitude, then we should have egg on out face for not recognizing it. I understand Asian culture enough to know the term 'face' and from your explanation it looks as though we left the UAE leadership with no face.

Then again, the UAE negotiators must have been in the same boat, to allow their side to bargain so ungraciously. They should have known if we were asked to leave Camp Mirage, we'd make sure we turned out the lights on our way. And if we were told to leave, we'd be sure to leave the milk in the fridge.