[EyeBrock]

Nobody really know's what would have happened if Stalin hadn't been there and somebody else was the Supreme Soviet.

What we do know is what Stalin actually did.

It's in the history books as horrible and brutal facts. Millions murdered, millions oppressed.

Saying he was the 'right man at the right time' or a 'Modern day Caesar' seems bizzare to me.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

I think too much credit is given to the evil bastard moniker Stalin has well earned when it comes to the "spirit" of the Russian soldier. Fact is, Stalin was well hated. In the inital phase of Operation Barbarossa, the Russians surrendered in droves believing it to be a war against Stalin and his brand of communism. There are several written accounts of surrendered Russian soldiers volunteering to join the Wermacht in the fight against Stalin style communism. Sadly for them it was less a war of ideologies and much more a race war against the Slavic peoples.

It was the secret war behind the lines that the average Russian started fighting for. He/she wasn't fighting for Stalin or communism, they were fighting for their homes, their families. Homes that were being burned and families that were being murdered just for being Slavic.
And while Stalin's plan may have been in part responsible for the victory, his plan wouldn't have meant shit if he didn't start moving the bulk of Russian industry out of German bomber range. A strategy that hardly calls for a stroke brilliance.

I believe the major reasons for Germany's failure lay in four areas. 1)The sheer size and vastness of Russia.
2)Hitler's lack of commitment in overall strategy but enforced adherence to even the minutest tactical decisions he made. Example; his insistence that his armies not retreat one inch no matter what, and yet within easy distance of Moscow, turns his armies 90 degrees to the south and orders them to take the Caucasus.
3)To Hitler, this was a race war and nothing more. 6 million Jews is a truly obscene number to murder. He murdered far more than 6 million Slavs. Wars of ideologies are easier to win in comparison to ethnic wars when the "victims" are quite willing and able to fight back.
4)Even without a Western Front to worry about, Hitler just didn't have the manpower to win a battle of attrition against a country with a population the size of Russia's that was willing to fight, including the women. In Germany, at any point it was rare to see a German woman even working in the factories to help make needed equipment.
Russia didn't win that war so much as Hitler lost it.

[Scape]

The Germans had bad weather, bad roads, vast distance, a late start, a war on two other fronts and Hitlers hubris yet despite all of that they still ended up in site of the spires of Moscow. None of that stopped them.

Whole armies surrenderer willingly, most of the airforce was smashed on the tarmac and the Soviet tank armies had yet to be formed and what they had were little better then armored cars. What army they had were conscripts and farmers. Aid from the allies would be months away and half a world away at the mercy of the Uboats that were unhindered and convoys were yet to be even thought of.

The only thing that kept the Russian line from completely dissolving into a disorganized partisan rabble instead of a cohesive fighting army that was able to hold back the tide was strong central leadership. It was generals such as Zhukov that provided the Russians tactical fighting chance but it was the the central authority that was the commissar that kept the conscripts in line. It was the conscripts that won that war for Russia and they would have fled in droves if not for Stalin.

Also, unlike Hitler, Stalin learned from his mistakes and when Hitler saw failure as an excuse to fire his generals and assume direct command with disastrous results Stalin let his generals have more and more reign over command allowing them to gain field experience. The end result was the development of Stavka the counter to the German OKW and that is what defeated the Germans. Everything else was a side show. The casualties on this front were monstrous. The bloodiest battle on the western front seem like a minor skirmish on this front. It was extreme and demanded extreme measures to fight and win.

To say that Germany defeated itself or that the Russians could have fought and won anyway is delusional at best. It's like saying all a solider is, is a civilian with a gun and a outfit while ignoring the Sergeant Major screaming his head off threatening bloody murder that breaks them down and then whips them into shape over the entire duration of their boot camp. Sheer fantasy.

[GreenTiger]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Scape Scape:

Stalin a beast? I suppose, but he was the right man at the right time. Never mind WWII without Stalin Russia would still be a simple agrarian backwater and not a world power.

Stalin was as bad as, worse in some ways, Hitler. Right man at the right time? I suppose Hitler and Mussolini were 'right men at the right time' too?

Really.

All Three were beasts, the only difference is Stalin won and winners get to write the history.