[Gunnair]

PENATRATOR PENATRATOR:

Brenda Brenda:

No offence, but they are guests in China. I don't think Canada would want Chinese government people to wear something offensive to Canada?

Smartest thing? Don't go to a country like this at a time like this. I think it is unnecessary to provoke. They are there to build relations, not to tear them apart.

Yeah guests as were the Canadian and British soldiers who died in China (not to mention suffered as POW's) at the hands of the Japs in Dec 1941, defending the colony at Hong Kong agianst ridiculous overwhelming odds. Guess they forgot about the subsequent attrocities the Japs went on the commit on the Chinese people themselves after that.

Fuck them, go build a cheap, lead based defective toy or something.

And then eat it.

[Gunnair]

bootlegga bootlegga:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

In general, you don't make demands of diplomats and that's not a faux pas on the part of the Chinese, it's a measured move to see if the UK will kowtow to them.

It was a request not a demand, big difference. See the article title if you don't believe me.

Good post. That being said, the Chinese had to know that this would cause a stir. The poppy worn on Remembrance Day does not in any way represent opium for the west, but the sacrifice of its soldiers. Asking the PM to remove that symbol because they are inexplicably associating it to the Opium Wars is a diplomatic miscue that makes the Chinese appear both diplomatically ham fisted and politically childish.

I get the ongoing anger of the Summer Palace's destruction, but the call Lord Elgin made is long since done and if the Chinese are still fuming over this, then maybe they need to mature a bit. Churlish little episodes like this don't do them any favours in the international arena, and one would think they have enough challenges without adding to the list.

[Brenda]

Bootlegga Bootlegga:

I agree with the PM's decision to keep wearing them, but the Chinese have a right to be pissed by what happened to them at the hands of the western powers in the 19th century.

I totally agree.

Eyebrock Eyebrock:

Your point fails to resonate Bren.

Obviously

[Brenda]

Note to Khar: I am not ignoring your posts, I read them, took notice, but it flies over my head to respond

[Gunnair]

Unsound Unsound:

Another thing to note is, unless I misread the article, the poppy isn't actually any kind of an official symbol of the Opium Wars. I believe they said it "might" remind some people of the wars???

Surprised they even let them in. Having a gweilo in the country just might remind them of the Opium Wars.

[ShepherdsDog]

$1:

a diplomatic miscue that makes the Chinese appear both diplomatically ham fisted and politically childish.

SOP with the Chinese.

$1:

I get the ongoing anger of the Summer Palace's destruction, but the call Lord Elgin made is long since done

And it was an appropriate response. The European and Indian envoys were under a flag of truce when the Chinese seized them, tortured them and then murdered them. That's just not cricket.

[sandorski]

This is why I'd go willingly with the Aliens. I can see why the Chinese could take Offense at this. I'm not going to be mad at them for mentioning this. Should they know? Perhaps, but there are things we should know as well. Getting Offended because someone else is Offended is annoying.

[EyeBrock]

sandorski sandorski:

This is why I'd go willingly with the Aliens. I can see why the Chinese could take Offense at this. I'm not going to be mad at them for mentioning this. Should they know? Perhaps, but there are things we should know as well. Getting Offended because someone else is Offended is annoying.

Oh dear, for totally missing the point, dare I say it? F......

[Gunnair]

sandorski sandorski:

This is why I'd go willingly with the Aliens. I can see why the Chinese could take Offense at this. I'm not going to be mad at them for mentioning this. Should they know? Perhaps, but there are things we should know as well. Getting Offended because someone else is Offended is annoying.

Be offended that they're white and white people burned the Summer Palace.

To employ your favourite reply in mine:

China - fail.

[ShepherdsDog]

$1:

This is why I'd go willingly with the Aliens.

It isn't because they promised you repeat anal probings??


That was so over the top of his head, Hubble couldn't have helped him locate it.

[EyeBrock]

bootlegga bootlegga:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

In general, you don't make demands of diplomats and that's not a faux pas on the part of the Chinese, it's a measured move to see if the UK will kowtow to them.

It was a request not a demand, big difference. See the article title if you don't believe me.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

The Chinese suffer from Middle Kingdom Complex and are in thrall to the belief that they are the rightful rulers of the world due to a number of factors. What they want is to see their old masters humbled.

That's definitely true, but not really relevant in this case. This wasn't an effort to push their might, but a request to move something they find offensive.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

China is militarily aggressive in asserting sovereignty over islands that are possessed by other countries, they assert that they have the right to sail warships at will through other countries territorial waters, they're stirring up sh*t along the India border again, they're exerting influence into Burma and some folks think they may try to annex it, they've got Vietnam scared into cozying up to the USA, and etc.

Sorry, but I hardly see China doing any of that. I haven't heard of China invading/fighting anyone since the 60s. On the contrast, the USA has invaded half a dozen or more countries in the same time frame (Grenada, Panama and Iraq 2003 come to mind).

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

You see just a demand to remove a simple poppy, I see the UK making a very important stand over a small issue and that stand indicating their resolve to stand on far larger issues.

Obviously, cross-cultural communications are not your forte.

Do you think it would be appropriate for a Japanese PM to wear a giant button that said Yasukuni shrine (where the remains of several class A war criminals are) when he visits North America? After all, the Japanese PM visits the place at least once a year and the US/Canada never says a peep about it. Of course not. That's similar to what happened here.

If you knew China and the Chinese as well as you claim, you'd understand that they are still upset about being invaded a number of times by Western countries.

Imagine if the a foreign power invaded the US and looted and destroyed a priceless cultural treasure (say Mount Rushmore or the Mall in Washington DC). Then after you spent a small fortune and decades rebuilding it, they came and wiped it out again.

That's what the Chinese are talking about.

Do some research and take a gander at what Yuan Ming Yuan park used to look like and you'll see why it pisses them off. It was a massive park complete with canals, lakes, temples, massive halls, etc. Then tack on all the death and other destruction the western armies brought with them and you might clue in about why it rankles them.

I agree with the PM's decision to keep wearing them, but the Chinese have a right to be pissed by what happened to them at the hands of the western powers in the 19th century.

Using that logic Boots, I should be well pissed off still at the Germans, Nazi bastards. Or maybe I should be well annoyed at the Norman French, maybe the Romans?

The Chinese misjudged their political clout because they have economic clout.

The showed their arse on this one and it's a real red flag on how they do business.

The Norwegians have been basically under economic assault (and victims of 'unknown' cyber assaults on Noggy government websites) since the Nobel peace prize went to Liu Xiaobo.

We should all be a bit more wary of China after all this recent stuff.

[ShepherdsDog]

all those unmarried Chinese guys. A promise of unlimited porn, if they spend an hour a day working on worms, trojans and such.

[martin14]

bootlegga bootlegga:

is as usual apologizing for the Chinese, this post should get him his 50 yuan

Either:


The Chinese Foreign Ministry is composed of complete idiots who don't know
what a poppy is and what it represents to us, and making the appropriate scheduling
changes to visits, making them look stupid, foolish, and not ready for primetime,


or


They staged this to try and show how they are so powerful in the world,
and got told to piss off.



You can choose

[desertdude]

Again sorry if this sounds out of line and dumb and maybe I should just keep my trap shut

But arn't all of you taking this poppy thing way too seriously. Its very honorable what it symbolises but I hardly see anything about the actual thing these poppies are supposed to represent other than a few post by QBC. Rest of the time its mostly squabling over the colour, who did what with them etc etc.

And for the topic, the first thing that came to my mind when I read the heading of this topic was the opium wars, didn't even need to read the article to make that connection, so I guessing the Chinese obviously would. Any ways they asked, he didn't. Blowing this way out of propotion really. End of really.

Also IMO its just common courtesy not to offend your hosts where you are guests, next time they meet up, the Chinese could be very well wearing or doing something offensive, now how would you all feel if you guys asked nicely and they said sorry no can do ? Then there is nothing really anyone can say about that then.

Once again sorry if any of this sounds crude.

[desertdude]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

People they consider(ed) two steps up from monkeys

Ah ! good to see the Chinese also believe in the theory of evolution