[BartSimpson]

desertdude desertdude:

Agreed, but you guys have a nasty habit of disposing or messing with democratically elected leaders who don't gel with your foriegn policies. Mohammad Mosaddegh, Salvador Allende and even Hamas which was democraticaly elected.

You can have democracy, but your not free to choose who you like.

With Mossadegh it simply came down to the unfortunate circumstance that he had tweaked the Brits by nationalizing the oil companies and then he tweaked the USA by turning to the Soviets for support. The USA didn't really give a crap about British intrigues in Iran, but we were very concerned about the Soviets gaining a warm water port on the Persian Gulf. Myself, I think he was a good man who picked the wrong friends.

Salvador Allende was undone by his own excesses. I think the involvement of the US and the USSR are overstated because when you look at the final analysis it was the legal institutions of Chile (the Supreme Court and the Chamber of Deputies) who performed their duties without assistance from white people. A good comparison is Honduras which recently turned out an elected leftist in a coup and has now re-established lawful order all without interference.

The part of the government that was obeying existing law in Chile authorized the coup and the result was the military government of Pinochet. Pinochet was, above all, a soldier. He did what soldiers do and acted to protect his country and when he felt he was done he peacefully turned over power to an elected government. The result is that Chile is now the economic and social shining star of Latin America. I may disagree with Pinochet's methods, but it is impossible to argue his results.

With Hamas no one disputes the legality of their election. That doesn't mean anyone has to be nice to them. I doubt the US wants Hamas overthrown because whatever would take their place would inevitably be worse. Israel could overthrow them tomorrow if they wanted but I think they have come to the same conclusion as I, that such a thing would lead to worse problems.

[desertdude]

The question remains what gives you the right to meddle in other peoples bussiness. Good or bad its the people choice.

You guys should learn from the Canadians.

And for Hamas, then what your saying is the whole Gazza siege and blockade was a sham?

We can overthrow them tommorow, but then what ? Hmmm...lets just fuck around with them and starve and ruin the city. Awesome idea ! ???

I find that very hard to swallow. The fatah leadership was more then willing to take over like west bank and thats what the Israelis themselves said many times. Look at west bank we got no problem there, you folks should have done the same. But Nooo you had to elect Hamas, now pay for it.

And yes true you don't have to like them but you have to respect the peoples wishes, but ofcourse history tells us otherwise.

[ShepherdsDog]

DesertDude DesertDude:

The question remains what gives you the right to meddle in other peoples bussiness.

I agree whole heartedly. NATO should have kept their noses out of Kosovo.

[thavee]

thank you

[desertdude]

Trying to stop a genocide and overthrowing or supporting overthrowing democraticly elected leaders are two different things. Focus shep. And till this point there is nothing NATO related in this thread. Whole and sole American and British interference. So whats the point in bring up NATO or Kosovo ?

And BTW NATO wasn't obliged to, but they did and it was a good thing for a change. IMO NATO should not exist, its a cold war machine and should have died with it along with many expensive cold war systems still in existance today. But war and arms profiteers won't let them. It was a defence against the Iron curtain and the big red russian bear, now both of them don't exist.

But infact its keeps enlarging, but countries have to bring their armies up to NATO standards to get membership, basically meaning better equipment. And guess whose the biggest arms supplier of weapons and military hardware. Ofcourse other European countries also gets a piece of the action like France, UK etc etc.

And anyways if thats your argument Where was NATO when a ship of its member country was attacked in international waters. Where NATO was legally obliged to respond to the attack.

Or If tommorow things go very sour with Turkey or any other member states, will Nato actually come to its defemse or retaliate against Israel ?

[Pseudonym]

What if the democratically elected leaders are pursuing a policy that would lead to genocide?

[ShepherdsDog]

$1:

Where was NATO when a ship of its member country was attacked in international waters.

When did this happen? I don't recall any NATO ship being attacked in international waters.

Pseudonym Pseudonym:

What if the democratically elected leaders are pursuing a policy that would lead to genocide?

You mean like Hamas calling for the destruction of Israel. Don't bring that up, it interferes with the cherry picking.

$1:

Where NATO was legally obliged to respond to the attack

Really??

[Pseudonym]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

$1:

Where was NATO when a ship of its member country was attacked in international waters.

When did this happen? I don't recall any NATO ship being attacked in international waters.

I think there was something about Hamas activists trying to exploit a NATO member state's ship to make a political statement. He's probably pissed that those activists didn't get jailtime.

[ShepherdsDog]

Ahhhh....now I get it it. The ship carrying terrorists and terrorist sympathizers that was intercepted by the IDF before it could violate a legal blockade.

[ASLplease]

Demian_164 Demian_164:

Thanos Thanos:

I'm appalled that the Israelis didn't immediately order an airstrike. Even if they didn't kill the evil little fucker they would have succeeded in scaring the shit out of him as badly as Reagan did to Khadafi.

cuz murder is how we solve problems!

all that is needed for the triumph of evil is good men do nothing - edmund burke

[Public_Domain]

[Freakinoldguy]

Isn't that cute, Ahmadinejad throwing rocks over the border at Israel.

Does anyone else see the irony in having this halfwit neadrathal, use the most advanced weapon he's capable of understanding, in a vain attempt to intimidate a nation with a nuclear weapon.

You go girl.

[Demian_164]

@ ASL:

murdering a man would make us evil, not him. he has done nothing to israel, committed no crime against them. perhaps the iranian people have some justification in removing him from power, but killing him is something else altogether. especially without any trial. that is not justice it is just brutality. if anything, he is doing some good by bringing the plight of the palestinian people into the spotlight. who else dares speak up against israel? they have slapped americans in the face over and over again in the past few months but they say nothing. no one will speak up against the continuation of settlements but this man and a few others. he is trying to prevent evil in this sense.

and secondly...just throwing a quote at me doesnt mean you are right. there are a lot of men who existed and said a hell of a lot of things

[martin14]

Demian_164 Demian_164:

@ ASL:

murdering a man would make us evil, not him. he has done nothing to israel, committed no crime against them.

yup, financing Hezbollah and Hamas is nothing.

[Demian_164]

any allegations should be followed up with proof. innocent until proven guilty. because the united states gives billions to israel in weapons and foreign aid, does that mean it would be ok to murder the president?

my point is, you cannot justify MURDERING this guy! that is not justice! in our country, we give people a trial! we dont just go around shooting people who we believe to be bad guys without any proof.

everyone loves to talk about hamas (democratically elected, i might add. we are in the business of promoting democracy around the world arent we?) and hezbollah, but what about hte IDF? they were the ones invading the gaza strip and murdering civilians this past year. israeli land continues to grow without any regard to international law or the community at large. even when obama demands a halt on the settlements the israelis just dont care. they are the only ones who have commited any act that can be considered genocidal