[CommanderSock]

desertdude desertdude:

Maybe you did get all the weird ones. But I have met some Paki Brits here as it is or atleast was a popular tourist destination in the UK. There are some who have gone a little more conservative due to feeling alienated in society, like trying hard to cling on to their last bit of cultural and religious identity for fear of losing it and unfortunately for a few this has gone into the extreme.

But do remember it was the British who came to the subcontinent looking for cheap indian and paki labour to work in their factories during the 60's and anyone who was willing to go was accepted.

Ah and I see a little back peddle, what you orginally posted was in a very condescending tone. But I'll give you props for at least accepting and correcting yourself. Unlike a few here.

Cheers

I actually agree with your view that many Pakistani Muslims have become more conservative due to societal alienation.

Dealing with racism produces different effects with different cultural groups. Indians seemed to have done okay in British society, Pakistanis, other Muslims and Blacks, not so much.

Muslim/Pakistanis seem to become more radicalized as they are pressured into a lower socio-economical status. Obviously it depends on the individual, but in general, muslims are still far more conservative than Indians, Africans and Chinese.

The fact that they cannot marry outside of the religion causes massive societal distress. Many are forced to go home to find wives, many of who are not prepared nor willing to participate in mainstream British (western) life. They stay home, and raise a children who, like them will be influenced more by their parent's culture. Instead of the 2nd and 3rd generation becoming more mainstream, they actually regress, they become more radicalized.

Western bigotry (especially in mainland Europe, Germany, France, Holland) also plays a massive role in perpetuating the problem.

I'd have more sympathies, but Western bigotry does seem to pale in comparison to what Pakistanis (and other Muslims) are capable of dishing out to other races. Much of their problems are self inflicted. In Canada, we'll have a problem if the trend for young Pakistanis in this country continues to be "You're acting like just like those westerners, stop it".

A bit of a merry go round really.

[desertdude]

Can't say I disagree with it at all. But you do need both hands to clap or as the saying goes the door swings both ways. Its just human nature. And its education and bridging cultural gaps that will end this or at the very least minimise it to a small group of people.

Man sees more ways to differentiate than associate. Look it Africa for example one would think they are mostly all of the same race, common languages cross many countries, live in almost same economic conditions. They should all get along splendidly. But ofcourse we know thats not the case.

Same with the subcontinent. Every one was living together more or less harmoniously. look alike, talk alike etc etc. Then draw a line between them and turn it into india and pakistan then all of a sudden its neighbour against neighbour and bitter enemiens.

Religion is a part of it but not the major contributing factor, although some places it has been made to seem like it. There is huge muslim on muslim violence in pakistan. clans vs clans, tribes vs tribes, caste vs caste.

Look at the brutal broad daylight mob lynching of two young boys in sialkot pakistan for no rhyme or reason. You'd think a country affected by its worst natural disaster ever would have better things to do ?

I personaly blame lack of education and dire economic circumstances more than anything for getting this grunt mentality. Which ofcourse is another can of worms about the corrupt leaders of country since the begining.

India is no better mind you and in most cases even worse, just that recently the government has stablised and some sectors have grown quite well and also the level of education is far better. But most of all its been able to show its best side internationally and hide its raw underbelly

[raydan]

desertdude desertdude:

I personaly blame lack of education and dire economic circumstances more than anything for getting this grunt mentality. Which ofcourse is another can of worms about the corrupt leaders of country since the begining.

Idle hands are the devil's workshop.

Also, you search for solace where you can find it when things are going bad.
Some drink and use drugs, others try to find it in religion.

[EyeBrock]

desertdude desertdude:

Maybe you did get all the weird ones. But I have met some Paki Brits here as it is or atleast was a popular tourist destination in the UK. There are some who have gone a little more conservative due to feeling alienated in society, like trying hard to cling on to their last bit of cultural and religious identity for fear of losing it and unfortunately for a few this has gone into the extreme.

But do remember it was the British who came to the subcontinent looking for cheap indian and paki labour to work in their factories during the 60's and anyone who was willing to go was accepted.

Ah and I see a little back peddle, what you orginally posted was in a very condescending tone. But I'll give you props for at least accepting and correcting yourself. Unlike a few here.

Cheers

My post to PA9 was tongue-in-cheek. Sometimes humour doesn't really come across as meant on the forum. There are many admirable qualities in Islam but as it’s practiced today, there are many retrograde and oppressive elements within its societal impact.

The Brits have done the cheap labour thing for centuries. Really, immigrants are treated no better or worse than generations of the working class Limeys have been. The Feudal system is alive and well in the British Class structure.

My family are idolatrous Irish (I like it Shep you Fish-Head!)and they were treated like dirt by the Brits for centuries. 'No Irish' signs were also common in Canada at one time.

Alienation by Pakistani's in the UK can explain some of the radicalism but I worked in an area of Manchester that was 60% Pakistani/Bangladeshi in the 1990's.
Many immigrants were not interested then in becoming part of the UK mainstream. Some were very aggressive in their want to not integrate.

I think the alienation thing is an excuse and has become a self fulfilling prophecy.

There are two sides to this argument and until both sides see that, there will be no progress and no peace.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

desertdude desertdude:

... or as the saying goes the door swings both ways.

Only if yer bi-sexual

[CommanderSock]

The feudal system is quite alive and well all across Europe. It's why Europe has such difficulty integrating outsiders.

Europe has a nasty history, more nasty than most cultures when it comes to dealing with those who are different. It's why Canada and the US have become a sort of Mecca and Medina (no pun intended) for colored and other minority Europeans.

However Muslims in general have to take a large part of the blame. Many of them will simply not integrate, and the rules of Islam don't allow for much integration. Much of the blame can be laid on Asia's inefficient cultural disposition towards differences in races and ethnos. Caste system and whatnot.

It's a toxic soup, not unlike ancient barbaric nordic pagan mythology, that mixed with 19th century scientific racism and the historical volkisch movement to create modern day white supremacism, nazism, and a slew of other nasty things that continue to haunt the Anglo-Celtic-Germanic peoples and their victims to this day.

The sad part is many white folks still believe this crap, the same way many Muslims and Asians believe the crap fed to them by their parents, and hence, all that is created is a continuous spiral of disdain for those who are different.

[EyeBrock]

CommanderSock CommanderSock:

The feudal system is quite alive and well all across Europe. It's why Europe has such difficulty integrating outsiders.

Europe has a nasty history, more nasty than most cultures when it comes to dealing with those who are different. It's why Canada and the US have become a sort of Mecca and Medina (no pun intended) for colored and other minority Europeans.

However Muslims in general have to take a large part of the blame. Many of them will simply not integrate, and the rules of Islam don't allow for much integration. Much of the blame can be laid on Asia's inefficient cultural disposition towards differences in races and ethnos. Caste system and whatnot.

It's a toxic soup, not unlike ancient barbaric nordic pagan mythology, that mixed with 19th century scientific racism and the historical volkisch movement to create modern day white supremacism, nazism, and a slew of other nasty things that continue to haunt the Anglo-Celtic-Germanic peoples and their victims to this day.

The sad part is many white folks still believe this crap, the same way many Muslims and Asians believe the crap fed to them by their parents, and hence, all that is created is a continuous spiral of disdain for those who are different.

Fair comment Sock and well put.

[desertdude]

Excellent, finally we are having a sane discussion for once.

I would agree with both Sock and Brock ( hey sounds like an old English pub ! )

But you must also give it its due credit, that the toxic soup with so many different and many variables hasn't exploded. Boiled violently a couple of times but is still there.

For the reasonable people who want nothing more than a peaceful quite life and a means to etch out a decent living for their family are the glue that binds this soup together. I remember hearing a documentry on BBC radio where family men some bussiness men, some poor day labourers all across the world some in different war zones like Iraq, Afganistan, Palestine and other from various countries. And this was the common theme among them all, and I was kind of shocked people from far flung out places singing the same song in unison. Peace and a decent living for the family.

Having said that sock is bang on with the blame lies on the parents for bringing up their offspring like that. And like I said before education and bridging cultral gaps is the key. You need to teach the Muslim that the evil white man of the west is not out to get you, And teach the west that everytime you see a muslim he's not thinking of ways to beheads you.

A very very enormous and difficult task, but not totally unachievable.

[EyeBrock]

Again, well put DD.

I'll see you for a pint in the Old Sock and Brock Arms!

[desertdude]

Yer on, Laddy

[BartSimpson]

desertdude desertdude:

Same with the subcontinent. Every one was living together more or less harmoniously. look alike, talk alike etc etc. Then draw a line between them and turn it into india and pakistan then all of a sudden its neighbour against neighbour and bitter enemiens.

Well, the Muslims and Hindus got along swimmingly under the Brits because their hatred of the Brits got them to put aside their hatred of each other. Once they got rid of the Brits they went right back to killing each other. Maybe Pakistan and India need to invite the Brits back for a while.

[desertdude]

Not really bart, although I wont say 100% of them got all swimmingly but the majority of them got along just fine. Even when the moguls were ruling they had many hindus in the government and in high ranking positions like ministers and governors etc etc.

Most of the cities were well mixed with Muslims having hindu neighbours and vice versa. Only when there was talk of independence and forming of a new country, extra fueled by rethoric did it start to get bloody. And does to till this day. But only in India and pakistan itself

But this is also I would say mostly work of the politicians. UAE has huge numbers of people from India and pakistan and really majority get along just fine. I have many many Indian friends and nationality or religion almost never ever comes up. So its a prime example of its serves the interest of the corrupt politicians to have this imaginary conflict among people who really have no problem with each other.

Many Indians and pakistanis still have families on the other side of the border, and the ones who do get cleared the strict checks have nothing but good things to say about the people and country further proving the common man has no beef with the other, but it serves the govts purpose more to be enemies rather then friends.

[EyeBrock]

It's pretty similar to Irish Catholics and Proddies. Outside NI and the guys I served with in the Mob all got on well. Of course there was the odd dick but mostly they got famously and that was at the peak of the Troubles.

Now the Irish regiments have a very healthy mix of Catholics and Proddies.

I've always seen a lot of parallels between the Troubles and what is going on with Muslims in the West.

The Muslims in the UK have become the Irish Catholics minus the Guiness.

[raydan]

desertdude desertdude:

UAE has huge numbers of people from India and pakistan and really majority get along just fine. I have many many Indian friends and nationality or religion almost never ever comes up. So its a prime example of its serves the interest of the corrupt politicians to have this imaginary conflict among people who really have no problem with each other.

I worked for an Indian boss and he had no problems hiring Pakistani employees.
Canadians/Russians/Bulgarians/Romanians/Lebanese/Chinese/Germans too.