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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:18 pm
 


desertdude desertdude:
Well then this should apply equally to the other side too, I'm sure they find you despicable and repugnant too. So does that mans your fair game ?

That what I mean earlier by stooping to their levels your no better than them and no one is doing the right thing ot have the moral highground. Just a bunch of savages fighting it out.


Of course there is a moral high ground. Here's a good example. You won't ever have Canadian or American soldiers coldly executing medical aid workers.

And yes, there is a difference between accidentally killing civilians (or your own soldiers) in a friendly fire incident and purposely targeting and capturing unarmed civilians to execute because they aren't Muslim or whatever.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:34 pm
 


kenmore kenmore:
He should never be allowed back in Canada and his scum bag family should be deported.

Most of his family is dead from the Afghan war or in prison for terrorism.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:35 pm
 


Oh there's plenty of 'em left in Mississauga and Toronto Proc.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:36 pm
 


Not trying to play devils advocate but just trying to make sense of it all

commanderkai commanderkai:
Of course there is a moral high ground. Here's a good example. You won't ever have Canadian or American soldiers coldly executing medical aid workers.


But they see you killing their people, ravaging and occupying their country. So I'm sure they also believe they are right and on moral high ground against the occupiers ?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:41 pm
 


desertdude desertdude:
But they see you killing their people, ravaging and occupying their country. So I'm sure they also believe they are right and on moral high ground against the occupiers ?


And if their moral high ground involves executing unarmed aid workers, their morality is totally corrupt from many and most mainstream views on religion and morality. If they think ten people, without guns, but rather medicinal supplies are killing, ravaging, or occupying anything, then there is something really really wrong with their world view.

And then it goes with what Eyebrock said:

Eyebrock Eyebrock:
Sometimes, killing these guys is the best way to go.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:49 pm
 


desertdude desertdude:
Not trying to play devils advocate but just trying to make sense of it all

commanderkai commanderkai:
Of course there is a moral high ground. Here's a good example. You won't ever have Canadian or American soldiers coldly executing medical aid workers.


But they see you killing their people, ravaging and occupying their country. So I'm sure they also believe they are right and on moral high ground against the occupiers ?



They don't see the US Army, the CF or the Brits pulling out teachers and medics from a mosque and neck shooting them DD.

They don't see the US Army throwing acid in school girls faces or hacking limbs off kids they think took treats from the CF or Brits.

Of course NATO has killed innocents. But not on purpose. That's the sole speciality of the Taliban and other terrorists that purport to do this evil in the name of Islam. On purpose.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:29 pm
 


commanderkai commanderkai:
Of course there is a moral high ground. Here's a good example. You won't ever have Canadian or American soldiers coldly executing medical aid workers.



"Coldly executing"? From what I undestand of the allegations there was a firefight during which Omar Khadr's father was killed and Omar seriously wounded. The grenade was lobbed over a wall, so it is doubtful that the media was "executed." Seems more likely he was the one unlucky enough to be standing next to the thing when it went off.

And actually, an officer that day was about to give the order to execute Khadr, but was overruled. Guess they wouldn't have all the fun of torturing him then. :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:34 pm
 


Proculation Proculation:
kenmore kenmore:
He should never be allowed back in Canada and his scum bag family should be deported.

Most of his family is dead from the Afghan war or in prison for terrorism.



Well his mama and brothers live in Toronto ... and they spout off anti west sentement on a regular bases while accepting welfare..


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:01 pm
 


desertdude desertdude:
but they see you killing their people, ravaging and occupying their country. So I'm sure they also believe they are right and on moral high ground against the occupiers ?


What the.....

Their people? He's Canadian, I'm Canadian, I don't go round killing, ravaging etc.

Unlike the Khadr's of this world


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:05 pm
 


Zipperfish Zipperfish:
"Coldly executing"? From what I undestand of the allegations there was a firefight during which Omar Khadr's father was killed and Omar seriously wounded.


I'm talking about the 10 aid workers who were killed a few days ago, Zip.

current-events-f59/taliban-executed-10-medical-missionaries-one-by-one-t90961.html


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:16 pm
 


The US could have avoided all this nonsense if they just called these Islamic terrorists POW's. No trial, and don't have to release them until the "War on Terror" is over!

The way the world is going these guys would all die of old age before ever being set free. Sounds like a win-win situation.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:35 pm
 


GreenTiger GreenTiger:
I'm not sure how to handle a "child warrior" like that. I understand his age, but tossing a grenade is not something minor either. My initial reaction is to treat him like any other combatant and wwe are he is undergoing a trial to see if he is guilty. If he is than I'm not sure what the right thing to do with him.

If the Canadians wanted him back to be tried under their laws I'm sure that could be arranged, but as I understand it Canada has made no such request.


I s'pose you could look at it like this.

Omar was 15 when he went to war and killed someone. And he's been held for what, 8 years or so?

Some gangbanging 15 year punk kills for shits and giggles and gets what?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:55 pm
 


luckystore2010 luckystore2010:
The US could have avoided all this nonsense if they just called these Islamic terrorists POW's. No trial, and don't have to release them until the "War on Terror" is over!

The way the world is going these guys would all die of old age before ever being set free. Sounds like a win-win situation.



True enough, but then the whiners would be complaining about the declaration
of war that can't exist because the Taliban isn't a country.

The GC provides for summary execution of hostiles not in uniform.
That is good enough for me.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:35 am
 


martin14 martin14:
luckystore2010 luckystore2010:
The US could have avoided all this nonsense if they just called these Islamic terrorists POW's. No trial, and don't have to release them until the "War on Terror" is over!

The way the world is going these guys would all die of old age before ever being set free. Sounds like a win-win situation.



True enough, but then the whiners would be complaining about the declaration
of war that can't exist because the Taliban isn't a country.

The GC provides for summary execution of hostiles not in uniform.
That is good enough for me.


How do you know he wasn't in uniform? What exactly does the Taliban uniform look like?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:13 am
 


$1:
A 2009 review determined that Canada had failed Khadr, by refusing to acknowledge his juvenile status or his repeated claims of being abused. In April 2009, the Federal Court of Canada ruled that the Charter of Rights and Freedoms made it obligatory for the government to immediately demand Khadr's return. After a hearing before the Court of Appeals produced the same result, the government announced they would argue their case before the Supreme Court of Canada. In January 2010, the Supreme Court ruled that Khadr's constitutional rights had clearly been violated, but it stopped short of ordering the government to seek his return to Canada


Does this mean the government can overlook the Charter of Rights and Freedom whenever it feels like on apply it selectively to its citizens. Could be setting a dangerous example for the future here.

Details of the fire fight, there is nothing there that shows anyone saw khadr lob any gernades.

$1:
The firefight

Arriving at a series of mud huts and a granary filled with fresh straw surrounded by a 10-foot (3.0 m) stone wall with a green metal gate approximately 100 metres radius from the main hut, the Special Forces team saw children playing around the buildings and an old man sleeping beneath a nearby tree.

Seeing five "well-dressed" men sitting around a fire in the main residence,with AK-47s visible in the room, Morris has claimed that he either approached and told the occupants, who had seen him, to open the front door[37] or that he snuck quietly back without being seen and a perimeter was set up around the complex. Either way, the team waited 45 minutes for support from the soldiers searching the first residence, and at one point Morris chided the soldiers from the 82nd for setting up a defensive perimeter with their backs to the house, rather than properly covering the house itself.

During this time, the elderly man sleeping beneath the tree awoke and began screaming loudly in Pashto, causing a number of local children to run over and interpret for the Americans, explaining that the man was "just angry". Morris took a photograph of the children standing on the road outside the compound. A crowd of approximately a hundred local Afghans had gathered around the area to watch the incident unfold. An Afghan militiaman was sent towards the house to demand the surrender of the occupants, but retreated under gunfire.

Reinforcements from the 3rd Platoon of Bravo Company, 1st Battalion 505th Infantry Regiment arrived under the command of Captain Christopher W. Cirino, bringing the total number of Americans and Afghan militia to about fifty. Two of Zadran's militiamen were sent into the compound to speak with the inhabitants, and returned to the Americans' position and reported that the men inside claimed to be Pashtun villagers. They were told to return to the huts, and inform the occupants that the Americans wanted to search their house regardless of their affiliation. Upon hearing this, the occupants of the hut opened fire, shooting both militiamen.

Several women immediately fled the huts and ran away while the occupants began throwing grenades at the American troops, with intermittent rifle fire. After the firefight, a statement by one of the soldiers would contradict this and say that there had only been one woman and one child present, and both were detained by US forces after exiting the huts.

Morris and Silver had now taken up positions outside the stone wall, with Silver "over Morris's left shoulder explaining where he should try to position his next shot", when Morris fell back into Silver, with a cut above his right eye and shrapnel embedded in his nose. Both Silver and Morris initially believed the wound was due to Morris' rifle malfunctioning, though it was later attributed to an unseen grenade. In an alternate account of the injury, Morris has also claimed that he was inside the compound and hiding behind the granary preparing to fire a rocket-propelled grenade into a wall of the house when he was shot.
Rewakowski and Worth convalescing in hospital from their grenade injuries.

Morris was dragged a safe distance from the action, and was shortly after joined by Spc. Michael Rewakowski, Pfc. Brian Worth and Spc. Christopher J. Vedvick who had also been wounded by the grenade attacks.

At 0910 a request for MedEvac was sent to the 57th Medical Detachment. Ten minutes later, DUSTOFF 36 and Wings 11, a pair of UH-60s, were deployed as well as AH-64 Apaches Widowmaker 23 and Widowmaker 26 as escort. Arriving at the scene, the Apaches strafed the compound with cannon and rocket fire, while the medical helicopters remained 12 miles (19 km) from the ongoing firefight. The helicopters finally landed at 1028 to load the wounded aboard DUSTOFF 36, while Brian Basham switched helicopters to take a wounded prisoner aboard WINGS 11, leaving Cpt. Michael Stone, CWO Ezekial Coffman, Spc. Jose Peru and Sgt. Frank Caudill aboard DUSTOFF 36, as a pair of F-18 Hornets dropped Mark 82 bombs on the houses.
American soldiers standing outside the compound.

At this point, a five-vehicle convoy of ground reinforcements arrived including a rifle squad from the 82nd Airborne, bringing the number of troops to approximately a hundred. Two of these vehicles were damaged beyond use by the militants. Ten minutes later, the MedEvac left for Bagram Airbase and a pair of A-10 Warthogs arrived on-scene and began attacking the houses along with the Apaches. The MedEvac arrived at Bagram Airfield at 1130.

Unaware that Khadr and a militant had survived the bombing, the ground forces sent a team consisting of OC-1, Silver, Speer and three Delta Force soldiers[43] through a hole in the south side of the wall, while at least two other American troops continued throwing grenades into the compound.
Speer being unloaded at Bagram.

The team began picking their way over the bodies of dead animals and three fighters. According to Silver's 2007 telling of the story, he then heard a sound "like a gunshot", and saw the three Delta Force soldiers duck – as a grenade flew past them and exploded near Speer, who was at the rear of the group and not wearing his helmet.

OC-1 reported that although he didn't hear any gunfire, but the dust being blown from an alley on the northside of the complex led him to believe the team was under fire from a shooter between the house and barn. He reported that a grenade was also "lobbed" over the wall that led to the alley and landed 30–50 metres from the alley opening. Running towards the alley to escape the grenade which he also didn't hear detonate, OC-1 fired a dozen M4 Carbine rounds into the alley as he ran past, although he couldn't see anything due to the rising dust clouds. Crouching at the southeast entrance to the alleyway, OC-1 could see a man with a holstered pistol moving on the ground next to an AK-47, with two chest wounds. From his position, OC-1 fired a single shot into the man's head, killing him.

When the dust cleared, OC-1 saw Khadr crouched on his knees facing away from the action and wounded by shrapnel that had just permanently blinded his left eye, and shot him twice in the back.

OC-1 estimated that all the events since entering the wall had taken less than a minute up until this point, and that he had been the only American to fire his weapon, although an American grenade had also been thrown into the living quarters after initially entering the complex.[32]

Silver initially claimed that two Delta Force troops had opened fire, shooting all three of the shots into Khadr's chest, after the youth was seen to be holding a pistol and facing the troops. These claims all directly contradict OC-1's version of events as the only eyewitness. OC-1 did agree however, that something was lying in the dust near Khadr's end of the alley, although he couldn't remember if it were a pistol or grenade.

Entering the alleyway, OC-1 saw two dead men with a damaged AK-47 buried in rubble who he believed had been killed in the airstrikes, and confirmed that the man he had shot was dead. Moving back to Khadr, OC-1 tapped the motionless youth's eye, confirming that he was still alive. Turning him over onto his back, for entering troops to secure, he began exiting the alleyway to find Speer, who he was unaware had been wounded. While leaving the alleyway, he saw a third AK-47 and several grenades.[32] Contradicting Morris' report of five well-dressed men, OC-1 maintained that a search of the rubble determined that there had only been four occupants, all found in the same alleyway.

Khadr was given on-site medical attention, during which time he repeatedly asked the medics to kill him, surprising them with his English. An officer present later recorded in his diary that he was about to tell his Private Second Class to kill the wounded Khadr, when Delta Force soldiers ordered them not to harm the prisoner.[47]

He was then loaded aboard a CH-47 helicopter and flown to Bagram Airbase, losing consciousness aboard the flight.[32][48]


Far from conclusive

Zipperfish Zipperfish:
"Coldly executing"? From what I undestand of the allegations there was a firefight during which Omar Khadr's father was killed and Omar seriously wounded.


His father was not there and killed a year later

Zipperfish Zipperfish:
And actually, an officer that day was about to give the order to execute Khadr, but was overruled. Guess they wouldn't have all the fun of torturing him then.


Come on man that a pretty cruel think to say. I wouldn't wish that even of my worst
enemy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilawar_%2 ... _victim%29

other sources quoted

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khadr


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