[N_Fiddledog]

The first thing I noticed when reading this article was it was from The Guardian. My perception of The Guardian is it leans left hard, and is Anti-Israel. So I Googled.

Here's the same story from an Israeli paper.

$1:

Sabbar Kashur, 30, was convicted as part of a plea bargain. According to the indictment, Kashur met the complainant in September 2008 in downtown Jerusalem, presenting himself as a Jewish bachelor looking for a serious romantic relationship.

The couple then went to a nearby building and had sex, after which Kashur left the building without waiting for the woman to get dressed.

When the woman found Kashur was not a Jew but an Arab, she filed a complaint that resulted in charges of rape and indecent assault.

In the verdict, deputy president of the Jerusalem district court Tzvi Segal, along with fellow judges Moshe Drori and Yoram Noam, wrote that although this wasn't "a classical rape by force," and the sex was consensual, the consent itself was obtained through deception and under false pretenses.

"If she hadn't thought the accused was a Jewish bachelor interested in a serious romantic relationship, she would not have cooperated," the judges wrote.

Segal further wrote that this was not a case to be resolved by having the convicted defendant undertake community service, as was suggested by the defense team in the plea bargain.

Protecting the public interest

"The court is obliged to protect the public interest from sophisticated, smooth-tongued criminals who can deceive innocent victims at an unbearable price - the sanctity of their bodies and souls," Segal wrote.

"When the very basis of trust between human beings drops, especially when the matters at hand are so intimate, sensitive and fateful, the court is required to stand firmly at the side of the victims ... otherwise, they will be used, manipulated and misled, while paying only a tolerable and symbolic price," he wrote.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/ne ... e-1.302895

Not quite as racist, right?

I'm no longer quite so sure race is the issue.

I'd say the Guardian is more racist than the judge myself.

[Zipperfish]

I don't see that much difference between the two articles. The facts are the same. The guy lied about his religion to get into a girl's pants and now he's doing time for rape.

Still, compared to the kind of sentences handed out by courts in coutries around Israel (stoning, anyone?) Israel is pretty good by comparison, but still not quite ready for prime-time.

[andyt]

Here's what the Guardian said

$1:

According to the complaint filed by the woman with the Jerusalem district court, the two met in downtown Jerusalem in September 2008 where Kashur, an Arab from East Jerusalem, introduced himself as a Jewish bachelor seeking a serious relationship. The two then had consensual sex in a nearby building before Kashur left.

How is that different than the article you're quoting?

Is it the usual practice in Israel to go to a building(?) and fuck with somebody you've just met and then expect them to make a lifelong commitment to you?

As somebody has asked, reverse the genders - do you seriously think the court would put a Jewish man in jail for doing this to a Muslim woman? And as others on this forum have said - that puts a lot of men in jeopardy, if any lie they tell is deemed to be rape. More than a few women as well.

Would you like to see a law applied like that in Canada?

[andyt]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Still, compared to the kind of sentences handed out by courts in coutries around Israel (stoning, anyone?) Israel is pretty good by comparison, but still not quite ready for prime-time.

Is that really relevant? Can't criticize Israel because it's neighbors are worse?

[andyt]

If Fiddledog is right, and this is not about racism, does this mean no Jewish man has ever lied to a Jewish woman about his intentions, and if so, have Jewish men been prosecuted and jailed for this offence?

[Zipperfish]

andyt andyt:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Still, compared to the kind of sentences handed out by courts in coutries around Israel (stoning, anyone?) Israel is pretty good by comparison, but still not quite ready for prime-time.

Is that really relevant? Can't criticize Israel because it's neighbors are worse?

I did criticize Israel ("not quite ready for prime time"). I think context is important, which is why I mentioned the surrounding countries.

[andyt]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

andyt andyt:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Still, compared to the kind of sentences handed out by courts in coutries around Israel (stoning, anyone?) Israel is pretty good by comparison, but still not quite ready for prime-time.

Is that really relevant? Can't criticize Israel because it's neighbors are worse?

I did criticize Israel ("not quite ready for prime time"). I think context is important, which is why I mentioned the surrounding countries.

Well I'm criticizing you - I don't think context is important. Israel says it's a democracy, let it act like one. That's like if we were to invade Bermuda just for shits and giggles, and say "well we're next to the US and they do it all the time, so we're not so bad."

I mean that's really the shock value of this story, that is happened in Israel. In Saudi Arabia they would both lose their heads just for having unmarried sex.

[Zipperfish]

andyt andyt:

Well I'm criticizing you - I don't think context is important. Israel says it's a democracy, let it act like one. That's like if we were to invade Bermuda just for shits and giggles, and say "well we're next to the US and they do it all the time, so we're not so bad."

I mean that's really the shock value of this story, that is happened in Israel. In Saudi Arabia they would both lose their heads just for having unmarried sex.

And I'm open to criticism. I don't discount the notion that there is a chance, however miniscule, that one day I'll be wrong about something.


I see your point: Should we not be comparing Israel to North America and Europe, instead of, say, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia? That's what prompted my "not quite ready for prime time" comment. I don't think Israel really belongs in the same league as North America and Europe quite yet.

[BartSimpson]

Yeah, Israel is wrong on this one and I hope that someone in a position of authority has the good sense to cut this jerk loose from prison. No offense, but all he's really guilty of is figuring out a story that got him into the pants of someone who gives it up in a public building. It's not like he's hoodwinking some pillar of purity and chastity here.

[andyt]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Yeah, Israel is wrong on this one and I hope that someone in a position of authority has the good sense to cut this jerk loose from prison. No offense, but all he's really guilty of is figuring out a story that got him into the pants of someone who gives it up in a public building. It's not like he's hoodwinking some pillar of purity and chastity here.

I don't think you want to go there, do you Bart. Determining the purity of the complainant as to the guilt of the defendant. This is just a ridiculous reason to jail somebody, even if he got into Mother Teresa's pants by telling her he's Jesus.

'Course I guess then he'd be charged with incest, since she's already married to his dad.

[ASLplease]

lying to get a chic to consent to sex should not be sentencable by jail sentence.

If he was to get a fine - although I dont agree with this law at all - then I'd have no problem with the conviction.

[Brenda]

Maybe not being gullible would do the trick. Lying is not a crime. Rape is. This was not rape.

[BartSimpson]

Brenda Brenda:

Maybe not being gullible would do the trick. Lying is not a crime. Rape is. This was not rape.

Exactly.

[bootlegga]

Wow, based on the title, I thought this was in a Muslim country, although I guess in most of them, they'd both get stoned or whipped for something like this.

Still, it's further proof that Israel isn't nearly as great a democracy and bastion of Western society as its supporters would have everyone believe. It's still a bit better then the rest of the Middle East, but that's not really that hard, is it.

[andyt]

In a way the Muslim countries are ahead of Israel. They wouldn't worry about the ethnicity of the participants, just behead or stone them, no questions asked. Equal opportunity cruelty.