[desertdude]

Lots of "expert" opinion on what the middle east is all about and what muslim women want and what the Burqa stands for, assumptions about opression etc etc

1st of all your mixing up the burqa with the Niqaab ( The full face veil ) which by the way neither are not mandatory in Islam. The argument was very well made about how event hough it might be legal to go topless in some places women still choose not to ! How shocking and opressive to women ! All women should be forced to go topless and tops should be banned. Ever seen those jungle tribes there women have no qualms about being topless and its perfectly alright.

So just like you can't make women in Canada well atleast most of them go topless and they choose to cover up, ever wondered for a second some muslim women feel the same way about the burqa. I know many where they feel naked and exposed without one out in public.

If a fat ugly ass women can and is allowed to roam around in a bikini top and hot pants, why can't a women choose to wear a burqa. What kind of security risk is that to society ?

A bit hypocritcal If you look at a nun's habit and dress its absolutely the same thing as a burqa ( not to be confused with the Niqab or the blue tent chador of the taliban )





When there isn't a problem with nuns roaming around in public then why all this hoo ha over the burqa. Infact the nun's habitat is more opressive to women than the burqa.

A nun is required to stay like this 24/7 only allowed to take it off when taking a bath and while sleeping I think. Muslim women only wears this when they go out.

A nun is looked at as kind, religious woman but a muslim women in a burqa is looked at some kind of freak and a risk to society ?

Some women just dont like to show off cleavge and crack, muslim or not. My wife grew up a Catholic in the Phillipines and ever since her teenage years shes never liked to show skin, and she's a good looking woman with a great figure, confident and with a high self esteem. Still to this day she wont wear anything but pants and wont wear shoulderless outside the house and I've haven't for a day told her how to dress.

So before jumping off to conclusion and following all the tired old stereotypes look and dicuss at the real issue. You claim to be a free country, what kind of freedom is this ? Ifact the very same thing you blame countries like saudia and Iran for. All of you are dicitating what one can and cannot wear.

[commanderkai]

desertdude desertdude:

A bit hypocritcal If you look at a nun's habit and dress its absolutely the same thing as a burqa ( not to be confused with the Niqab or the blue tent chador of the taliban )

There's a difference. Nuns CHOOSE to be nuns. There is no law in Catholicism that all women must become nuns, and as such, are forced to wear the uniforms that nuns wear. And nuns, if they choose to, can leave their respective order to return to normal society.

So really, it's not hypocritical at all. When a woman is forced to wear an outfit due to her being a woman, that's a huge issue. However, I don't see any issue with anybody needing to wear a uniform of her profession, much like I don't have issues with women police officers or flight attendants wearing the specified uniforms of their profession.

If a woman CHOOSES to wear anything like a niqab or a burka, fine. However, said dress should not give said woman special treatment in public. If you are asked to identify yourself by a police officer or a voting official, do it. If a woman wearing a niqab or a burka can accept that their dress does not entitle them to stay anonymous when attempting to interact with outside society then I honestly don't care at all.

If a woman is forced to wear it due to the threat of physical force, then there's a huge issue. Banning the burka is wrong, in my opinion, but not giving women wearing burka or niqabs special treatment in public when interacting with government officials, police officers, or whoever else might need to see proof of identification (a convenience store clerk checking for ID) is totally fair.

[martin14]

desertdude desertdude:

You claim to be a free country, what kind of freedom is this ? Ifact the very same thing you blame countries like saudia and Iran for. All of you are dicitating what one can and cannot wear.

hmmm, when you learn how to read, you will notice that this thread is about
the debate in France, not Canada.

Or I guess all us palefaces look the same to you.


Second, you might have a point if ALL Western women dressed like nuns.

But, lets face it, its a very small minority that wear a habit.


The rest are free to choose how they dress.



No doubts, the burka represents the worst of Islam.
Subjugation, imprisonment, deprival of identity, and treating women
as no more than chattel.

There is also a security aspect. Wearing a burka is also good cover
for thieves and robbers.


This is a small statement of the backlash that is starting to build in the West.
All Muslims should take note of this.

[Zipperfish]

CanadianJeff CanadianJeff:

Someone that is chronically unemployable shouldn't be allowed to immigrate anyway.

I'd support that.

[BartSimpson]

I'm okay with Muslim men forcing women to wear burqhas so long as they're okay walking around with steel-toed Wolverine boots up their butts.

[Bacardi4206]

desertdude desertdude:

Lots of "expert" opinion on what the middle east is all about and what muslim women want and what the Burqa stands for, assumptions about opression etc etc

1st of all your mixing up the burqa with the Niqaab ( The full face veil ) which by the way neither are not mandatory in Islam. The argument was very well made about how event hough it might be legal to go topless in some places women still choose not to ! How shocking and opressive to women ! All women should be forced to go topless and tops should be banned. Ever seen those jungle tribes there women have no qualms about being topless and its perfectly alright.

So just like you can't make women in Canada well atleast most of them go topless and they choose to cover up, ever wondered for a second some muslim women feel the same way about the burqa. I know many where they feel naked and exposed without one out in public.

If a fat ugly ass women can and is allowed to roam around in a bikini top and hot pants, why can't a women choose to wear a burqa. What kind of security risk is that to society ?

A bit hypocritcal If you look at a nun's habit and dress its absolutely the same thing as a burqa ( not to be confused with the Niqab or the blue tent chador of the taliban )





When there isn't a problem with nuns roaming around in public then why all this hoo ha over the burqa. Infact the nun's habitat is more opressive to women than the burqa.

A nun is required to stay like this 24/7 only allowed to take it off when taking a bath and while sleeping I think. Muslim women only wears this when they go out.

A nun is looked at as kind, religious woman but a muslim women in a burqa is looked at some kind of freak and a risk to society ?

Some women just dont like to show off cleavge and crack, muslim or not. My wife grew up a Catholic in the Phillipines and ever since her teenage years shes never liked to show skin, and she's a good looking woman with a great figure, confident and with a high self esteem. Still to this day she wont wear anything but pants and wont wear shoulderless outside the house and I've haven't for a day told her how to dress.

So before jumping off to conclusion and following all the tired old stereotypes look and dicuss at the real issue. You claim to be a free country, what kind of freedom is this ? Ifact the very same thing you blame countries like saudia and Iran for. All of you are dicitating what one can and cannot wear.

You are operating on the assumtion that somebody said it was your government's law that dictated women should wear a Burka? Infact it's the families, those who are overly religious that force there wives, daughters, etc to wear them. You are new to Canada so maybe you will learn, however there are a lot of news reports here and infact in many western countries of some nutjob muslim father who was overly religious that killed his daughter for dressing to western or being to westernized. IE, choosing NOT to wear her Burka. Care to explain this? or care to explain in a lot of muslim countries in the middle east, you see a ton of opression of women in the middle east. Women who get raped, yet are whiped and sent to prison for "being a tease". Women who get fined or imprisoned for talking to other guys in public without the permission of her husband or her husband present. I could go on and on with this but you might just deny it and go on with your day.

As for the nun thing, the two are completely different. Women choose to be nuns, that outfit is of there professional. Like if a women became a police officer. They are also free to leave in which also not wear it once they leave. The outfit is only worn by nuns, women to choose to become one. All other women do not wear them, neither do there fathers or husbands force them to do so. Evidence of such I am sure you will notice once you move to Canada, as there are lot of women who dress in varieties. From non-revealing, to revealing, to revealing revealing. If I go to the middle east right now, what will I see? Will I see women in a variety of clothes, ranging from the same thing or will I see a shit load of women in burkas? I wonder.

As well, the Burka is a security risk. When the west is under constant terrorist threat. Any peice of clothe that completely conceals the identity of the person as well as what they may have underneath. That's a security risk. Expecially when they claim religious intolerance when security wants to search them or asks them to remove there face coverings. Any terrorist could easily commit a crime this way and get away unoticed. It reminds me of this joke picture I saw a couple weeks ago, it was a news paper clipping of the police asking the public if they reconise this guy who robbed a store. He was completely covered with a hoody and mask. You couldn't see one facial identification part. He wore sunglasses so you couldnt even see his eyes. Lots of criminals wear face masks to hide there identity when commiting a crime. Yet, you don't see how this could be a security risk?

[CanadianJeff]

"So just like you can't make women in Canada well atleast most of them go topless and they choose to cover up, ever wondered for a second some muslim women feel the same way about the burqa. I know many where they feel naked and exposed without one out in public."

A) As said earlier this is a debate in France not Canada.

B) Isn't the fact that they have to wear one not to feel exposed concern you? We all know it's unreasonable to think wearing a t-shirt is sexually exposing. We simply know better and we know that changing our clothing based on the weather has freed us in this country to better comfort in our environment.

Is not the fact that someone is so brainwashed that the magical man in the sky wants all women to cover up (and of course it's only the women who are at fault here for man's inability to control himself) that they feel naked without having to cover their entire body distressing? You realize this law and it's defense that the burqa protects women from sexual desire implies that men cannot control themselves thus women must protect themselves from men.

As a man I find that repulsive and disgusting and I find that any man willing to impose this on a woman for his own lack of control repulsive and vile in the highest degree. It is both disgraceful and insulting for both men and women that we think we are somehow below being able to control our sexual desire.

Is this decree of god's law not repressive? Is the law itself not a violation of what we have grown to love as freedom? Is handing such control of identity over to one gender not destructive of diversity?

I find the very idea that a god would be interested in repressing the very beauty of the women he created through supposed divine word to be extremely contradictory.

The fact that you fail to see the contradiction in the repression of human beauty as conflicting with a loving god creating human beauty shows how petty and little minded you are.

I would implore you good sir to begin to understand how absolutely absurd the religious oppression of sexuality is. Most especially in it's implication that the men are unable to control themselves so it falls onto the women to shoulder the burden.

[desertdude]

See again a lot of assumptions, like they are forced to wear it. Yes I'll agree there are who are forced to wear it but that's not the majority. This notion of that all women are forced to wear them comes from POS regimes like Iran and the Taliban.

Like Dubai or infact the entire gulf region and middle east save for Saudia and Iran. Even Muslim Majority countries like Pakistan, Indonesia and Malaysia. There is no law or force for women to cover up yet they do, some don't. Choice.

I agree with the poster that just because a women choose to wear it she should not be entitled to any special treatment, like I for one have no issues with france banning of women wearing the burka from swimming pools. If your so modest that you need to wear the burka you shouldn't be sloping around in a public swimming pool anyways. Just like Islam doesn't not impose wearing the burqa it also does not impose that its a must you have to jump around in a pool either.

Again the majority argument is that they are forced to wear it, Why is it so hard to swallow that fact that majority of the women might choose to do so, and if so what is your problem ?

We all have our share of nut jobs and loons, some do in the name of religion some do it because they claim a dog posessed by the devil told them to and some believed that he was from a superior race and the rest needed to be wiped off the face of the planet. So loon behaviour is not the property of just one race or religion. The example you and I have citied are from extremes and do not represent the norm.

Its typical human reaction, your either afraid of something you don't understand or you want to destroy or get rid of it.

I know whatever I say or do won't change your mind or opinion as you already have preconceived notions of what is and isn't but just step out of the soap box for a second and have a closer look.

Anyways my view is that most here agree with banning it mostly for no other reason other than because its associated with Islam and subletting into the opression for women argument.

If the burqa is banned then so should be the Nun's Habit. The Hasedic jews payot or sidelock and their all black garb and the kippah, Collars from priest etc etc
Would be fair don't you think ? After all they are dresses associated with the wearers faith.

The argument is moot that they choose to, like I just explained so do the burqa wearing women. I'm not against or for wearing the burqa but that if a women chooses to she should be able to Just like that ugly ass obese women chooses to wear a bikini top with pink hot pants. Now that is more of a crime towards society and women than any burqa wearing lady

[CanadianJeff]

And you failed to address any one of my important questions and instead dance around the bush and try to turn my argument into a straw-man point of "they all HAVE to wear a burqa"

You then go on to have the balls to try and accuse me of not thinking outside the box when (I'm sorry to repeat myself) you failed to even address a single one of my questions.'

What's worse is your offensive response of trying to accuse me of "typical human reaction" and imply that I am somehow fearful of the burqa without any significant proof.

Shall I go on or do you get how offensive and abrasive your being while still failing to answer any of the questions posted with any direct relevance?

[desertdude]

I did Jeff but without directing then at you, but in general, would take me forever to answer each and every question or argument posted here, and I do have better things to do than to sit here all day playiing Q n A.

Lets give it another try so you will stop whining.

A) Yes I know its France Sherlock but the majority agreed and some even said it should be done in Canada aswell so I was addressing to them as Canadians unless the Qubecens (?!) still consider themselves French

B) This isn't a question at all than just a stab at religion and no particular religion just religion in general. I'll address whatever I could make out to be a question from that dribble.

Like I said and if you would have read my post earlier, the burqa, niqaab or chador is not mandatory in Islam at all. There is nothing wrong with wearing a T shirt. The burqa is more cultral than anything else. and since you brought that being comfortable in our climate argument up, a loose fitting garment covering the entire body is best suited for the hot humid desert climate where thesun blazes in your face all year round and even men wear it and it works best than any track suit can. And now has become part of how they dress from centuries of living in such extreme climates predating even Islam or christianity. Jesus is always depicted wearing a long flowing robe if you havent noticed and so are any women, Last supper anyone.

To get it across. After having lived in that region for eons the men and women have adapted them selves and now it is part of their culture and tradition. Even non muslim women from those regions wear such clothing i.e : The coptic chrstians.

High heels are more damaging to women than any burqa will be anyday, Humans were not meant to walk and function on stilts. Why don't you raise your voice against that just to fit into western stereotypes of what female beauty should be like, women should not bring on permanent harm to their bodies and reject them.

But is engrained into society now and acceptable. I mean I could go on forever with you for eg back to your climate argument. How long has the skirt, T-shirt, Tank tops and thight jeans been around ? You guys have been living on that continent for around 500 years now. Look back at the clothing of women lets say 100 years. Do you see any T shirts, Tank tops etc etc. Look at women in Europe from that time ?
You will see most of them wearing full sleeved dresses till the floor. Oppressive ?

Women wern't even allowed to vote till 1918 in Canada. In 1848 was only a law passed in the US that men and women should have equal rights, The right to own property, equal rights etc etc all just recently came into existance when you look it. Now thats what I call oppressive and unequal treatment.

Why stop at women. In living memeory of many people alive today black people wern't even considered proper humans in the so called most advanced civilisation of this planet today. And as late as 1994 in South Africa ruled by descendants of your forefathers.

So you gotta long way before you can accuse or associate anyone of anythign regarding race, religion or what one chooses to wear and what it represents.

A Burqa is piece of cultral clothing nothing more and nothing less. Would you stop these catholic negerian women from wearing this. It seems dangerously "Islamic". Hair and body covered ?



If not then why can't a Muslim or Non Muslim woman wear a burqa I ask ?

[Guy_Fawkes]

I agree with DD pretty much 100% on this subject. I have been to the middle east and even in Afghanistan, not all women wear the burqua nor the niqaab (mind you the decsion on what they allowed to wear in afghanistan is up to the husband/father not the woman).

[EyeBrock]

Personally I have an issue with banning items of clothing in a free society. It’s just not the right way to go.

As anybody who has studied Islam will know, the Qur’an does not actually say “You shall be covered from head to toe”.
It does say that women should dress modestly. It’s men and not Allah who have twisted this to mean something else.

The Bhurka and Niqab are purely cultural items of dress and are not dictated or even referred to in any Qur’anic texts. Those who try to justify Bhurkas et al as such are just wrong and have an agenda that doesn’t include the teachings of the Prophet.

The other issue which our Muslim friends seem to miss is how negatively the covering of a face is seen in western culture.
Bank robbers have masks, bad guys have masks. Masks cover up identity which makes us suspicious.

Immigrants from socially medieval states such as Pakistan, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia etc need to make a choice.
Stay in the Stone Age social systems prevalent in their country of birth or be reviled for masking-up in the west.


From a legislative point of view, veils of any sort should be prohibited in any public place where facial identification is required to confirm documentary identification. After that you can put your veil back on Mrs Khan.


Employment law should also be adjusted to require that employees who are in face-to-face contact with customers, suppliers etc should not wear a full veil.
I see little wrong with a Hijab and that should be left alone.

Employees who wish to wear the veil should be made aware that certain jobs require that no veil be worn and can be accommodated in areas where it isn’t an issue. If that isn’t possible they shouldn’t be hired.

It’s no different than uniform requirements in other jobs. If you don’t wear the uniform you don’t get hired.

This is another area where true and fair but firm leadership is required from Parliament and the Courts. If they don’t take the lead this issue will continue to be a lighting rod that draws in the less than desirable elements in the Muslim world.
It will also continue give the racists and xenophobes a great visual example of the 'dangers' of immigration from the feudal Islamic states, into Canada.



Oh and on nuns. How many nuns do I see walking around in the GTA? I've never seen one but I have seen lotsa Bhurkas and Niqabs.

[andyt]

I agree

Employment law should make clear that the employer can set a dress code. That means no veils if they wish, even when out of the public's eye. Or, if the employer wished, everybody has to wear the veil - up to them.

But all the leadership from politicians won't help if the Supreme court rules otherwise. As we've seen, the court ties itself in knots trying to be fair, so for instance they'll try to test your sincere belief if you get a religious exemption for something. Your sincere belief is no business of the court's - if one person gets the exemption, all should. So I should be able to wrap a towel around my head to ride a bike in BC, should I be crazy enough to want to do so, since Sikhs enjoy that privilege.

[EyeBrock]

I think Hooters girls with a veil might be interesting. Nah.....!

[BartSimpson]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Personally I have an issue with banning items of clothing in a free society. It’s just not the right way to go.

To maintain the free society sometimes you need to ban oppression and the instruments of oppression. The onus of responsibility here starts with the muslims who want not only their women to wear muslim clothing, but to require by acts of coercion that non-muslim women wear them, too. Thus the clothing is become a tool of oppression against non-muslim women and that's what the French are tweaking about.