commanderkai commanderkai:
You might need the Ottoman Empire for that.
Yep. We'll return the area to the same population demographics that existed then too. That will make everybody who matters happy.
commanderkai commanderkai:
Sure, tell the Arabs the same thing too, right? Why not all of us in Canada and the United States return back to Europe too, and leave our countries to the Native Americans/Aboriginals?
You be sure to remember your ideology that the original people hold no rights when immigrants tell you that. In fact I can see the same reasons why violence broke out after massive Jewish immigration into the region reflected in the people here who get all worked up over immigrants wanting things like religious apparel.
commanderkai commanderkai:
Plus, didn't the Arabs consider the formation of Israel a "misguided" activity, thus leading to the Independence War in 1948? Well, I guess the Arabs showed how misguided they were.
The British realized their mistake and look what happened to them.
commanderkai commanderkai:
I assume you mean fair, instead of "Far fetched." Considering the region first consisted of Jews during the last time there was an independent state where current day Israel is, shouldn't that mean the Arab Muslims be kicked out from the land that they immigrated to? They did conquer the land from the Christians (who inherited the land from the Romans, who conquered the land). Isn't that where this argument leads to, in the end?
Fair was the word and before you start trying to make some strawman argument going back that far you should be aware that the Palestinians comprise the people who existed on that land long before the Romans. They have a genetic legacy predating your bible and a claim on the land every bit as old as the Jews who immigrated there, moreso since they indeed never left. The fact is they were there in the modern era and do not deserve to have lost their land in this manner.
commanderkai commanderkai:
Alongside political lines that were created by a Turkish invasion of the island? Tell the Turks to end their occupation and let the Cyprus people reunite into one single political entity. Oh wait, because it was the Turks invading and carving out a land, it's perfectly okay, even though international law contradicts this?
Why don't the Greeks on the island who attempted a violent coup let the peaceful Turks reunite with their country? Is that what you meant to say? The fact that Turkey acted after a violent Greek military junta seems lost entirely on you and in fact you just what to try and throw up a red herring because what happens here has no bearing on the reality of Palestine.
Of course I need not point out that who right wing military take over of Greek and their subsequent support of the Cyprus coup was a rape of democracy as cited by the US ambassador to Athens prompting the very telling reply by CIA station chief Jack Maury "How do you rape a whore"
You do understand that the military coup itself was against international law right and a crime against democracy?
commanderkai commanderkai:
And it was carved out by force because....the Arabs weren't happy with the UN mandate, and invaded. They lost, and Israel was born.
It was carved out in force long before that. The British saw the problems it was creating and when faced with the Arab revolt of 1936. The White Paper was an attempt to fix the problems of mass immigration to avoid the hostilities such a large swing in demographics would bring. They saw what was coming back then and they were right. The Jews responded by opposing immigration quotas.
Now imagine it were immigrants telling Canada they were coming here in numbers they decided and not us. That was the start of real conflict. Massive immigration
of people who had never lived in that area over the wishes of the people who lived there who basically had little or no say in the matter.
I'd be mad too.
Of course the British immigration bans resulted in the aforementioned "carved out by force" as the Jews became radicalized. Recall the
Lehi movement, a terrorist organization (at least then) whos goal it was to
forcibly evict British authorities (the ones who made it possible for them to even be there) and allow
unrestricted immigration and
Irgun movement (also a terrorist group) whos policies included bombing hotels and the Deir Yassin massacre, (and before you respond with
Beisan you be sure to read thwe whole story) a leading casus belli in the first bloody war. Very much terrorists back then but funny that, the Israelis of today think of them a whole lot more like freedom fighters kinda like Palestinians view their suicide bombers and for the same reasons too.
You make it sound like *poof* Israel came into existence only to be ruthlessly attacked by the surrounding Arab savages when nothing is further from the truth. IN fact they used terrorism, bombings, violence, and political assassinations to achieve their goal. By the time the UN decided on a partition plan the immigrants Jews had already spent years using violence to carve out their Israel and Arab states (not to mention the already present Arab people) were in no mood to be further told what to do by people who by the vast majority were European immigrants.
A very far cry from the narrow minded revisionist tale you tell. In fact to put this in a very modern perspective its like hordes of muslim immigrants, say in the south of France deciding they want to form their own country now that they constitute 40% of the population. Think France would find that acceptable? Under your ideology they would.
commanderkai commanderkai:
And isn't that what Israel did with Gaza? If the Palestinians wanted to show they had something worth keeping, they could of turned Gaza into a peaceful, prosperous area to show Israel "Hey look! You leave us alone, and we won't try killing you!". Sadly, and I do regret this, that's not what happened.
Don't hand me that crap. They force millions of people unto a tiny strip of land, people who used to hold ownership over much of the whole area and they are supposed to be happy? Would you?
commanderkai commanderkai:
Gaza could have been the first step by the Palestinians to show that they truly want peace too. The Israelis left, forced hundreds of their residents out of Gaza (ending the economic and military occupation) and left them various economic infrastructure to give them a nice start. They used this chance to elect Hamas, which started another war with Israel by kidnapping Israeli soldiers within Israeli soil.
Lets go back further. Arabs in the early half of the century were very sympathetic to Jews fleeing various European nations and the various anti-Semetic pogroms. What was their reward? Suddenly those European immigrants were flooding in demanding that the land be established as their new homeland.
Funny that you seem to want to ignore that fact. You keep thinking that history only begins after 1948. These people don't. They have people living who remember those days when hundreads of thousands of European immigrants used violence to establish a country on their land.
Now you think they should be happy with Gaza? Why is it that the people who most support Isreal are the same right wingers warning me about the dangers of Muslim immigration and what may happen? Is it because they helped do it once?
commanderkai commanderkai:
The problem is, to the Palestinians, they consider Israel their occupied territory. As you can probably guess, Israelis disagree.
Where do you think they got that idea from? Historical factual evidence?
commanderkai commanderkai:
Why would I? Israel left Gaza completely, relocating a number of their citizens out of the region, and moved their military to within their own borders. Gazans showed their pleasure of independence by electing Hamas. This, however, didn't fully mean they were against peace. When Hamas started lobbing rockets into Israel, and ultimately, attacked Israel by killing and kidnapping its soldiers within its own soil showed the true intentions of said government, and Israel reacted like any government would under the circumstances, war.
Do you think they learned a few lessons from Lehi & Irgun? Do you think they think people fighting on their behalf in the same manner as Israelis view their terrorist organizations?
commanderkai commanderkai:
Whenever an occupation force wants to pull out, it does it gradually to try to keep stability of said occupied territory, as well as preserving as many of their resources as possible by not needing to deal with opportunistic guerrilla attacks. This gradual process could take months, or even years.
As already said this is also about the WEST BANK. They have no plans to simply pull out and are very slowly making sure it stays in their hands which is an act of war in contradiction of the UN and Geneva convention.
commanderkai commanderkai:
Gaza was a HUGE step for an independent Palestine. Israeli settlements were abandoned, though left intact. This was a HUGE political gamble by the Israeli government at the time, because popular support was against this. Israel also gradually relinquished military control of Gaza as well.
I really love how you hold so much admiration for the Israelis for giving back to the Palestinians a tiny sliver of the land they used to own. Really I do.
I'm sure if Canada were taken over and then we were allowed to keep only PEI we'd all be happy as clams too.
commanderkai commanderkai:
What resulted was, at first, chaos. Now, a freed people will act chaotically. They destroyed the leftover settlements and whatever economic infrastructure. You know what? That's fine. Israel left them as goodwill, but it was likely those settlements would be damaged or destroyed by ecstatic Palestinians who were happy over independence. Next, a little civil war began between Hamas and Fatah. Of course, Israel wanted the more moderate Fatah to win, and provided assistance to Fatah through granting them access to Israel to move military forces into Gaza. Fatah lost.
I might say the same thing about Likund, which has its roots in the aformentioned terrorist Irgun party. They are a MAJOR stumbling bloc to peace.
commanderkai commanderkai:
Hamas became gradually more and more aggressive, breaking a short lived truce, and violating Israel's sovereignty by rocket and mortar attacks. Not long after, they attack Israel through kidnapping soldiers on Israeli soil.
No, they are targeting military occupiers just like the Maquis used to do. You can't possibly be defending Israeli sovereignty
at the same time support violating Palestinian, Iraqi, Iranian, Afghani, and just about any other muslim country in the region.
What logic allows you to think Iraqi sovereignty isn't as absolute as you think Israeli is? Are you going to bring up the UN? I hope so that way I can revisit the 131 resolutions the UN has made against Israel, the same UN who by the way created Israel through a resolution.
commanderkai commanderkai:
Thus continues the cycle. Israel, as much as you might think otherwise, took a very brave and risky gamble to pull out of Gaza, going against popular support of their populace. This gamble backfired, and the Israeli populace punished that government accordingly by electing a more right wing, or, I'd say, a more "realist" government. Said realist government has put the interests of Israel ahead of populist, or idealistic concepts of the Palestinian issue, because of how Gaza backfired.
I'd say the who back fire thing was allowing massive Jewish immigration into the whole area. That was the true mistake. Gaza only backfired because it was an aparteid band aid solution. A true solution would be the dissolution of the Jewish state as it stands, elimination of the racist policy of right of return (to people who aren't really returning), and allowing back all Palestinians driven out.
I'll settle for the previous 1947 UN partition plan but then my opinion means squat to the people who live there.
You keep thinking that people simply have to suck it up and accept peace under Israeli terms. They did not accept peace under the terms of the White paper. They rejected all but their own idea of what the land should be and they achieved it through force. By continuing their violent repression of the Palestinians people and by continually expanding their illegal settlements they are alienating more and more nations around the world, nations who used to look at them favourably (ever wonder why more and more people are siding with the Palestinians?) at them, and providing all the legitimacy any opposing military needs to invade them.
In fact you haven't made a single supportable reason why Israeli sovereignty shouldn't be treated as well as they treated British authority back when they were the terrorists.
commanderkai commanderkai:
So therefore I see Western liberals ignoring this HUGE signal by the Israelis with their desire of peace, saying it wasn't good enough. Israel must pull out of all of its occupied territory, including territory it sees as its own and territory that acts as buffers from aggression by Muslim states (Golan Heights and Syria). Israel has made signals like this in the past, specifically Sinai, and that was more successful by having Egypt end its aims to destroy Israel. Israel's relations with Jordan, another traditional enemy, have also improved (though the only territory I can think of that was Jordanian, but Israel occupied it, was the West Bank).
It's time for the Palestinians to show their intention of peace. Show that they'll stop trying to destroy Israel, and peace can actually occur. So far, as much as people might want to ignore it, Israel has put forth more and more signals of peace. Sooner or later, maybe those who ignore those signals will realize that.
Its time for Israel to declare that they recognize that a Palestinian state should exist and they are willing to return large parcels of land to that state. Then its time we send in peacekeepers to ensure that happens and minimize whatever revenge attacks either side will attempt.
The very next thing would be for us westerners to get the F*ck out of their lands and leave them to govern their own affairs as clearly this situation can be laid at that particular foot.
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