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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:05 pm
 


DerbyX DerbyX:
Why not the borders that existed prior to British interference?


You might need the Ottoman Empire for that.

$1:
How about we call the Israel thing a misguided activity and simply send everybody who immigrated to the area back to where they came from.


Sure, tell the Arabs the same thing too, right? Why not all of us in Canada and the United States return back to Europe too, and leave our countries to the Native Americans/Aboriginals?

Plus, didn't the Arabs consider the formation of Israel a "misguided" activity, thus leading to the Independence War in 1948? Well, I guess the Arabs showed how misguided they were.

$1:
That sounds far since it was the massive influx of immigrants (from a different religion) causing the problem, ironically something people in Canada are worried about.


I assume you mean fair, instead of "Far fetched." Considering the region first consisted of Jews during the last time there was an independent state where current day Israel is, shouldn't that mean the Arab Muslims be kicked out from the land that they immigrated to? They did conquer the land from the Christians (who inherited the land from the Romans, who conquered the land). Isn't that where this argument leads to, in the end?

$1:
As for Cyprus, turkey invaded after an attempted coup by Greek nationalists and these matter are disputed. In fact though the island is split alongside political lines with autonomy pretty much given to both. Pretty good idea for the whole Palestine/Isreal thing.


Alongside political lines that were created by a Turkish invasion of the island? Tell the Turks to end their occupation and let the Cyprus people reunite into one single political entity. Oh wait, because it was the Turks invading and carving out a land, it's perfectly okay, even though international law contradicts this?

$1:
There was no free and sovereign Israel until it was carved out by force.



And it was carved out by force because....the Arabs weren't happy with the UN mandate, and invaded. They lost, and Israel was born.

$1:
YOu keep saying look forward well here it is. We build a free and Palestine state with them and give them autonomy and something worth keeping and worth not wanting to loose.


And isn't that what Israel did with Gaza? If the Palestinians wanted to show they had something worth keeping, they could of turned Gaza into a peaceful, prosperous area to show Israel "Hey look! You leave us alone, and we won't try killing you!". Sadly, and I do regret this, that's not what happened.

$1:
<sigh> leaving Gaza simply isn't enough when they consider far more land beyond that as occupied territory.


Gaza could have been the first step by the Palestinians to show that they truly want peace too. The Israelis left, forced hundreds of their residents out of Gaza (ending the economic and military occupation) and left them various economic infrastructure to give them a nice start. They used this chance to elect Hamas, which started another war with Israel by kidnapping Israeli soldiers within Israeli soil.

The problem is, to the Palestinians, they consider Israel their occupied territory. As you can probably guess, Israelis disagree.

$1:
In addition you hold no contempt for Israels who continually poke the bear with illegal settlements and by sending civlilians into a combat zone/occupation zone are the true people responsible for civilian deaths when they get rockets chucked at them.


Why would I? Israel left Gaza completely, relocating a number of their citizens out of the region, and moved their military to within their own borders. Gazans showed their pleasure of independence by electing Hamas. This, however, didn't fully mean they were against peace. When Hamas started lobbing rockets into Israel, and ultimately, attacked Israel by killing and kidnapping its soldiers within its own soil showed the true intentions of said government, and Israel reacted like any government would under the circumstances, war.

$1:
Israel mu stop all settlements in occupied territory and withdraw the people they already have there. Then we send in impartial peace keeps to protect the Palestinians from the Israelis and help them police themselves to root out the people who want only war.

Once they start have something they don't want to see destroyed then they'll become believers in the peace process but all this must be done with them getting their land as an absolute goal and not a "maybe if you are good".


Whenever an occupation force wants to pull out, it does it gradually to try to keep stability of said occupied territory, as well as preserving as many of their resources as possible by not needing to deal with opportunistic guerrilla attacks. This gradual process could take months, or even years.

Gaza was a HUGE step for an independent Palestine. Israeli settlements were abandoned, though left intact. This was a HUGE political gamble by the Israeli government at the time, because popular support was against this. Israel also gradually relinquished military control of Gaza as well.

What resulted was, at first, chaos. Now, a freed people will act chaotically. They destroyed the leftover settlements and whatever economic infrastructure. You know what? That's fine. Israel left them as goodwill, but it was likely those settlements would be damaged or destroyed by ecstatic Palestinians who were happy over independence. Next, a little civil war began between Hamas and Fatah. Of course, Israel wanted the more moderate Fatah to win, and provided assistance to Fatah through granting them access to Israel to move military forces into Gaza. Fatah lost.

Now, Israel closed its borders to Hamas controlled Gaza. As much as you might think this is a sign of Israel's badness, or whatever, Israel does not need to have open borders with its neighbors, and certainly doesn't need to provide economic assistance (through supplying electricity, fuel, water, etc), especially considering Gaza has a nice border with Egypt as well. Egypt closed its borders too. So much for Muslim solidarity with the Palestinians.

Hamas became gradually more and more aggressive, breaking a short lived truce, and violating Israel's sovereignty by rocket and mortar attacks. Not long after, they attack Israel through kidnapping soldiers on Israeli soil.

Thus continues the cycle. Israel, as much as you might think otherwise, took a very brave and risky gamble to pull out of Gaza, going against popular support of their populace. This gamble backfired, and the Israeli populace punished that government accordingly by electing a more right wing, or, I'd say, a more "realist" government. Said realist government has put the interests of Israel ahead of populist, or idealistic concepts of the Palestinian issue, because of how Gaza backfired.

So therefore I see Western liberals ignoring this HUGE signal by the Israelis with their desire of peace, saying it wasn't good enough. Israel must pull out of all of its occupied territory, including territory it sees as its own and territory that acts as buffers from aggression by Muslim states (Golan Heights and Syria). Israel has made signals like this in the past, specifically Sinai, and that was more successful by having Egypt end its aims to destroy Israel. Israel's relations with Jordan, another traditional enemy, have also improved (though the only territory I can think of that was Jordanian, but Israel occupied it, was the West Bank).

It's time for the Palestinians to show their intention of peace. Show that they'll stop trying to destroy Israel, and peace can actually occur. So far, as much as people might want to ignore it, Israel has put forth more and more signals of peace. Sooner or later, maybe those who ignore those signals will realize that.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:37 pm
 


:|


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:57 pm
 


Mr_Canada Mr_Canada:
PluggyRug PluggyRug:
andyt andyt:
57308738/7,000,000,000 = .0081 square miles per person. Trading, selling and owning communally will be allowed once everybody's got their piece.


Thats ok cos whoever gets the patch next to mine will get beaten over the head with a wet tar brush. I want his bit as well. So all those without wet tar brushes better look out I is a coming.

The rebirth of capitalism.


Indeed. I can see a growth market for wet tar brushes here. :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:51 pm
 


BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Mr_Canada Mr_Canada:
PluggyRug PluggyRug:


Thats ok cos whoever gets the patch next to mine will get beaten over the head with a wet tar brush. I want his bit as well. So all those without wet tar brushes better look out I is a coming.

The rebirth of capitalism.


Indeed. I can see a growth market for wet tar brushes here. :wink:


And 11 ft poles...


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:57 pm
 


:|


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:40 am
 


commanderkai commanderkai:

You might need the Ottoman Empire for that.


Yep. We'll return the area to the same population demographics that existed then too. That will make everybody who matters happy.


commanderkai commanderkai:
Sure, tell the Arabs the same thing too, right? Why not all of us in Canada and the United States return back to Europe too, and leave our countries to the Native Americans/Aboriginals?


You be sure to remember your ideology that the original people hold no rights when immigrants tell you that. In fact I can see the same reasons why violence broke out after massive Jewish immigration into the region reflected in the people here who get all worked up over immigrants wanting things like religious apparel.

commanderkai commanderkai:
Plus, didn't the Arabs consider the formation of Israel a "misguided" activity, thus leading to the Independence War in 1948? Well, I guess the Arabs showed how misguided they were.


The British realized their mistake and look what happened to them.


commanderkai commanderkai:
I assume you mean fair, instead of "Far fetched." Considering the region first consisted of Jews during the last time there was an independent state where current day Israel is, shouldn't that mean the Arab Muslims be kicked out from the land that they immigrated to? They did conquer the land from the Christians (who inherited the land from the Romans, who conquered the land). Isn't that where this argument leads to, in the end?


Fair was the word and before you start trying to make some strawman argument going back that far you should be aware that the Palestinians comprise the people who existed on that land long before the Romans. They have a genetic legacy predating your bible and a claim on the land every bit as old as the Jews who immigrated there, moreso since they indeed never left. The fact is they were there in the modern era and do not deserve to have lost their land in this manner.


commanderkai commanderkai:
Alongside political lines that were created by a Turkish invasion of the island? Tell the Turks to end their occupation and let the Cyprus people reunite into one single political entity. Oh wait, because it was the Turks invading and carving out a land, it's perfectly okay, even though international law contradicts this?


Why don't the Greeks on the island who attempted a violent coup let the peaceful Turks reunite with their country? Is that what you meant to say? The fact that Turkey acted after a violent Greek military junta seems lost entirely on you and in fact you just what to try and throw up a red herring because what happens here has no bearing on the reality of Palestine.

Of course I need not point out that who right wing military take over of Greek and their subsequent support of the Cyprus coup was a rape of democracy as cited by the US ambassador to Athens prompting the very telling reply by CIA station chief Jack Maury "How do you rape a whore"

You do understand that the military coup itself was against international law right and a crime against democracy?

commanderkai commanderkai:
And it was carved out by force because....the Arabs weren't happy with the UN mandate, and invaded. They lost, and Israel was born.


It was carved out in force long before that. The British saw the problems it was creating and when faced with the Arab revolt of 1936. The White Paper was an attempt to fix the problems of mass immigration to avoid the hostilities such a large swing in demographics would bring. They saw what was coming back then and they were right. The Jews responded by opposing immigration quotas. Now imagine it were immigrants telling Canada they were coming here in numbers they decided and not us. That was the start of real conflict. Massive immigration of people who had never lived in that area over the wishes of the people who lived there who basically had little or no say in the matter.

I'd be mad too.

Of course the British immigration bans resulted in the aforementioned "carved out by force" as the Jews became radicalized. Recall the Lehi movement, a terrorist organization (at least then) whos goal it was to forcibly evict British authorities (the ones who made it possible for them to even be there) and allow unrestricted immigration and Irgun movement (also a terrorist group) whos policies included bombing hotels and the Deir Yassin massacre, (and before you respond with Beisan you be sure to read thwe whole story) a leading casus belli in the first bloody war. Very much terrorists back then but funny that, the Israelis of today think of them a whole lot more like freedom fighters kinda like Palestinians view their suicide bombers and for the same reasons too.

You make it sound like *poof* Israel came into existence only to be ruthlessly attacked by the surrounding Arab savages when nothing is further from the truth. IN fact they used terrorism, bombings, violence, and political assassinations to achieve their goal. By the time the UN decided on a partition plan the immigrants Jews had already spent years using violence to carve out their Israel and Arab states (not to mention the already present Arab people) were in no mood to be further told what to do by people who by the vast majority were European immigrants.

A very far cry from the narrow minded revisionist tale you tell. In fact to put this in a very modern perspective its like hordes of muslim immigrants, say in the south of France deciding they want to form their own country now that they constitute 40% of the population. Think France would find that acceptable? Under your ideology they would.

commanderkai commanderkai:
And isn't that what Israel did with Gaza? If the Palestinians wanted to show they had something worth keeping, they could of turned Gaza into a peaceful, prosperous area to show Israel "Hey look! You leave us alone, and we won't try killing you!". Sadly, and I do regret this, that's not what happened.


Don't hand me that crap. They force millions of people unto a tiny strip of land, people who used to hold ownership over much of the whole area and they are supposed to be happy? Would you? :roll:


commanderkai commanderkai:
Gaza could have been the first step by the Palestinians to show that they truly want peace too. The Israelis left, forced hundreds of their residents out of Gaza (ending the economic and military occupation) and left them various economic infrastructure to give them a nice start. They used this chance to elect Hamas, which started another war with Israel by kidnapping Israeli soldiers within Israeli soil.


Lets go back further. Arabs in the early half of the century were very sympathetic to Jews fleeing various European nations and the various anti-Semetic pogroms. What was their reward? Suddenly those European immigrants were flooding in demanding that the land be established as their new homeland.

Funny that you seem to want to ignore that fact. You keep thinking that history only begins after 1948. These people don't. They have people living who remember those days when hundreads of thousands of European immigrants used violence to establish a country on their land.

Now you think they should be happy with Gaza? Why is it that the people who most support Isreal are the same right wingers warning me about the dangers of Muslim immigration and what may happen? Is it because they helped do it once?

commanderkai commanderkai:
The problem is, to the Palestinians, they consider Israel their occupied territory. As you can probably guess, Israelis disagree.


Where do you think they got that idea from? Historical factual evidence?


commanderkai commanderkai:
Why would I? Israel left Gaza completely, relocating a number of their citizens out of the region, and moved their military to within their own borders. Gazans showed their pleasure of independence by electing Hamas. This, however, didn't fully mean they were against peace. When Hamas started lobbing rockets into Israel, and ultimately, attacked Israel by killing and kidnapping its soldiers within its own soil showed the true intentions of said government, and Israel reacted like any government would under the circumstances, war.


Do you think they learned a few lessons from Lehi & Irgun? Do you think they think people fighting on their behalf in the same manner as Israelis view their terrorist organizations?

commanderkai commanderkai:
Whenever an occupation force wants to pull out, it does it gradually to try to keep stability of said occupied territory, as well as preserving as many of their resources as possible by not needing to deal with opportunistic guerrilla attacks. This gradual process could take months, or even years.


As already said this is also about the WEST BANK. They have no plans to simply pull out and are very slowly making sure it stays in their hands which is an act of war in contradiction of the UN and Geneva convention.


commanderkai commanderkai:
Gaza was a HUGE step for an independent Palestine. Israeli settlements were abandoned, though left intact. This was a HUGE political gamble by the Israeli government at the time, because popular support was against this. Israel also gradually relinquished military control of Gaza as well.


I really love how you hold so much admiration for the Israelis for giving back to the Palestinians a tiny sliver of the land they used to own. Really I do. :roll:

I'm sure if Canada were taken over and then we were allowed to keep only PEI we'd all be happy as clams too.

commanderkai commanderkai:
What resulted was, at first, chaos. Now, a freed people will act chaotically. They destroyed the leftover settlements and whatever economic infrastructure. You know what? That's fine. Israel left them as goodwill, but it was likely those settlements would be damaged or destroyed by ecstatic Palestinians who were happy over independence. Next, a little civil war began between Hamas and Fatah. Of course, Israel wanted the more moderate Fatah to win, and provided assistance to Fatah through granting them access to Israel to move military forces into Gaza. Fatah lost.


I might say the same thing about Likund, which has its roots in the aformentioned terrorist Irgun party. They are a MAJOR stumbling bloc to peace.

commanderkai commanderkai:
Hamas became gradually more and more aggressive, breaking a short lived truce, and violating Israel's sovereignty by rocket and mortar attacks. Not long after, they attack Israel through kidnapping soldiers on Israeli soil.


No, they are targeting military occupiers just like the Maquis used to do. You can't possibly be defending Israeli sovereignty at the same time support violating Palestinian, Iraqi, Iranian, Afghani, and just about any other muslim country in the region.

What logic allows you to think Iraqi sovereignty isn't as absolute as you think Israeli is? Are you going to bring up the UN? I hope so that way I can revisit the 131 resolutions the UN has made against Israel, the same UN who by the way created Israel through a resolution.

commanderkai commanderkai:
Thus continues the cycle. Israel, as much as you might think otherwise, took a very brave and risky gamble to pull out of Gaza, going against popular support of their populace. This gamble backfired, and the Israeli populace punished that government accordingly by electing a more right wing, or, I'd say, a more "realist" government. Said realist government has put the interests of Israel ahead of populist, or idealistic concepts of the Palestinian issue, because of how Gaza backfired.


I'd say the who back fire thing was allowing massive Jewish immigration into the whole area. That was the true mistake. Gaza only backfired because it was an aparteid band aid solution. A true solution would be the dissolution of the Jewish state as it stands, elimination of the racist policy of right of return (to people who aren't really returning), and allowing back all Palestinians driven out.

I'll settle for the previous 1947 UN partition plan but then my opinion means squat to the people who live there.

You keep thinking that people simply have to suck it up and accept peace under Israeli terms. They did not accept peace under the terms of the White paper. They rejected all but their own idea of what the land should be and they achieved it through force. By continuing their violent repression of the Palestinians people and by continually expanding their illegal settlements they are alienating more and more nations around the world, nations who used to look at them favourably (ever wonder why more and more people are siding with the Palestinians?) at them, and providing all the legitimacy any opposing military needs to invade them.

In fact you haven't made a single supportable reason why Israeli sovereignty shouldn't be treated as well as they treated British authority back when they were the terrorists.

commanderkai commanderkai:
So therefore I see Western liberals ignoring this HUGE signal by the Israelis with their desire of peace, saying it wasn't good enough. Israel must pull out of all of its occupied territory, including territory it sees as its own and territory that acts as buffers from aggression by Muslim states (Golan Heights and Syria). Israel has made signals like this in the past, specifically Sinai, and that was more successful by having Egypt end its aims to destroy Israel. Israel's relations with Jordan, another traditional enemy, have also improved (though the only territory I can think of that was Jordanian, but Israel occupied it, was the West Bank).

It's time for the Palestinians to show their intention of peace. Show that they'll stop trying to destroy Israel, and peace can actually occur. So far, as much as people might want to ignore it, Israel has put forth more and more signals of peace. Sooner or later, maybe those who ignore those signals will realize that.


Its time for Israel to declare that they recognize that a Palestinian state should exist and they are willing to return large parcels of land to that state. Then its time we send in peacekeepers to ensure that happens and minimize whatever revenge attacks either side will attempt.

The very next thing would be for us westerners to get the F*ck out of their lands and leave them to govern their own affairs as clearly this situation can be laid at that particular foot.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:43 am
 


bootlegga bootlegga:

Again, this goes back to your argument about everyone giving everything back to their previous owners. Israel, prior to 1948, existed and was conquered by empire after empire (Assyrians, Romans, Ottomans, to name just a few), so using your own argument, why didn't the Palestinians have to give it back to them in 1948?

Like I said, the Brits (and French and the UN) tried to be equitable (as well as generous given the fate that most European Jews had suffered during WW2) and tried to come up with a solution that was fairly equal all things considered. Then the Palestinians (and their Arab allies) tried to take everything back and wound up with nothing.

Sorry, but I don't have any pity for them.


Perhaps you should read by reply to Commanderkai then. The history of the region is one of the Jewish immigrants using violence and terrorism to establish a population majority and my sympathy goes with the people who lived there at that time.

Now if we want to establish that immigration changing demographics are a viable means to establish new countries then Canada is in a wee bit of trouble don't you think?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:22 am
 


Mr_Canada Mr_Canada:
I don't want Israel building anymore settlements though. That will just cause bad things and you can't guarantee the safety of the people in those settlements in this situation.


Since Israel built the wall to keep out the vermin they've had *zero* terrorist bombings. I'd say they're doing just fine at protecting their people.

As I've said time and again, if the Muslims would swear off violence and follow the lead of Mahatma Gandhi they'd win this thing *tomorrow* because they'd have the moral high ground.

But so long as they think that slaughtering high school students and commuters is a viable strategy then I really don't give a sh*t what Israel wants to do with them.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:36 am
 


DerbyX DerbyX:
Gaza only backfired because it was an aparteid band aid solution. A true solution would be the dissolution of the Jewish state as it stands, elimination of the racist policy of right of return (to people who aren't really returning), and allowing back all Palestinians driven out.

I'll settle for the previous 1947 UN partition plan but then my opinion means squat to the people who live there.


Oh, so it only backfired because Israel exists and the Jews...Oh wait, I mean Israelis, oops, keep existing. Damn those stubborn people.

This discussion is over. I was writing a lengthy response, about how the King David Hotel was a legitimate target, that there are distinctions between terrorism and rebellion/freedom fighting, and ignoring every single red herring you created (which basically was the entire post) but, if this is what you believe, then it's no use. You just basically admitted you see that Israel has no right to exist. You might "settle" for its existence, but you have expressed your true statements over this issue. We're done.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:55 am
 


commanderkai commanderkai:
DerbyX DerbyX:
Gaza only backfired because it was an aparteid band aid solution. A true solution would be the dissolution of the Jewish state as it stands, elimination of the racist policy of right of return (to people who aren't really returning), and allowing back all Palestinians driven out.

I'll settle for the previous 1947 UN partition plan but then my opinion means squat to the people who live there.


Oh, so it only backfired because Israel exists and the Jews...Oh wait, I mean Israelis, oops, keep existing. Damn those stubborn people.

This discussion is over. I was writing a lengthy response, about how the King David Hotel was a legitimate target, that there are distinctions between terrorism and rebellion/freedom fighting, and ignoring every single red herring you created (which basically was the entire post) but, if this is what you believe, then it's no use. You just basically admitted you see that Israel has no right to exist. You might "settle" for its existence, but you have expressed your true statements over this issue. We're done.


:roll: You cowardly resort to claiming its a Jewish thing and you misrepresent my position that Israel has no right to exist (at the same time your position suggests that very thing about Palestine).

Then you find ways to say how terrorist actions taken on their behalf (and even their government of the day called them that) were legitimate (something all terrorists can claim).

We agree on one thing. You are done.

BTW: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David ... he_bombing

Yep. They were resistance fighters but others are terrorists. Like I said before. Terrorist is what the big army calls the little army. Everybody thinks their cause is just and righteous. Why else would they fight for it?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:00 pm
 


With respect to the First nations, it should be pointed out that the First nations people in Canada do not regularly go out of their way to kill them, nor does Canada go out of its way to kill them. This is an important distinction between Israel/Palestinians and Canada/First Nations. We are dealing with our issues primarily at the treaty table.

Israel and the Palestinians are a long way from this.

I also get a kick out of how the right-wing--who thoroughly despise the UN--are suddenly the UN's biggest fans when it comes to their first and perhaps most flawed decision--to unilaterally create Israel.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:49 pm
 


Zipperfish Zipperfish:
With respect to the First nations, it should be pointed out that the First nations people in Canada do not regularly go out of their way to kill them, nor does Canada go out of its way to kill them. This is an important distinction between Israel/Palestinians and Canada/First Nations. We are dealing with our issues primarily at the treaty table.

Israel and the Palestinians are a long way from this.

I also get a kick out of how the right-wing--who thoroughly despise the UN--are suddenly the UN's biggest fans when it comes to their first and perhaps most flawed decision--to unilaterally create Israel.


And this would be considered unique to Canada, compared to how Natives were treated in every other country on the planet. We didn't "Kill" them, but we are certainly told they were screwed over, and we're on their land, no? Either way, comparisons can be made between both.

As for the United Nations. Organizations change, nothing stays the same. Making the UN Mandate over Israel and Palestine official did not create Israel right off the bat, considering various declarations of war against Israel, and UN inaction over said war. The fact Israel survived the Independence War wasn't guaranteed, and as such, the statement that the UN unilaterally created Israel is a stretch.

I'd also disagree that Israel is a long way away from dealing with their issues politically. They dealt with Jordan and Egypt, sacrificing whatever occupied territory Israel had for peace, and both, so far, have succeeded. I'd consider Gaza another example of Israel's willingness for peace. It's a long way from peace now, but that's due to the issues that arose after the Gaza pullout


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:10 pm
 


BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Oh, and any solution for the Israel/Palestine situtation that does not include the eradication of the Jews will not result in a lasting peace in the region. The Islamic faith commands the Muslims to hate the Jews and rearranging borders will do diddly sh*t to fix that greater problem.

Wherever the Jews exist the Muslims will hate them and try to kill them. That's just a simple fact.

[cheer]

You nailed it, a Palestinian State would not eliminate 100's of years of bad feelings and hate. Lets face the truth here, fact is at various times both sides have done thier part to further conflict in the area and I honestly do not see a seperation of the 2 states being the final solution.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:44 pm
 


BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Since Israel built the wall to keep out the vermin they've had *zero* terrorist bombings. I'd say they're doing just fine at protecting their people.

As I've said time and again, if the Muslims would swear off violence and follow the lead of Mahatma Gandhi they'd win this thing *tomorrow* because they'd have the moral high ground.

But so long as they think that slaughtering high school students and commuters is a viable strategy then I really don't give a sh*t what Israel wants to do with them.


1) It'll be interesting to see how effective the wall is if a Third Intifadeh is about to break out. Long walls are difficult to completely guard. Given that the Palestinians managed to blow up a Merkava 4 tank and kill it's entire crew with a high-powered land mine in the last round I wouldn't discount their ability to knock a few holes in the wall to let sappers and other infiltrators sneak through.

2) Any Muslim politician anywhere who disavows killing Jews is dead meat politically, and probably dead meat literally once his co-religionists get their enraged hands on him. Too much of Muslim self-identity is wrapped up in the religiously-inspired hatred for and desire to kill Jews. A home-grown non-violence movement is probably a literal impossibilty to ever develop anywhere in the Muslim-dominated parts of the world.

3) Jerusalem bus #19 and the pizzaria bombing that both killed so many Jewish kids were probably sufficient enough to kill off the Jewish peace party. The last election was between the hard-right Likud and the middle-right Kadima started by Ariel freaking Sharon, and the leftist Labour that would have been most amenable to peace negotiations effectively disappeared altogether. Both the 2006 Lebanon incursion and the 2008 Gaza punishment offensive polled highly in support from across the entire breadth of the Israeli polity, including among Jewish left-wingers who used to be firm supporters of the peace process prior to the carnage wreaked by the Second Intifadeh. Everyone from the UN to the US administration can babble all they way about "two state solutions" or "re-starting the peace process" but the existential fact on the ground is that the last Palestinian terrorist offensive killed of the Jewish peace movemnt. There is little to no desire right now on the part of Israels collectively to bother talking to the Palestinians anymore about anything.

People in the West and Europe have no idea how deeply radicalized and hardened Israeli opinion is right now. If the Palestinians push it too far with another terrorist offensive then they might be looking at an Israeli response that is no longer a limited military offensive but will resemble instead a full-blown ethnic cleansing. Israelis no longer give a shit about world opinion and will probably do what they think they have to in order to eliminate an ongoing terror threat


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:24 pm
 


I agree with you Thanos, but I think Israelis are realizing that the carrots the Israelis continually offer are ignored constantly by the Western media, and are constantly tossed back into Israel's face. Israel is unrelentingly attacked for using the stick, no matter how restrained they are, patient they are before they actually use it, etc.

I have see arguments against Israel that we would never even consider with Canadian or American native populations, or other similar peoples in the world. Soon the Israelis just won't care about public relations (like they sincerely tried during the Gaza offensive)


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