[DerbyX]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

You're talking about cheaper drugs, right?

This thread concerns a supposed hypocrisy by Sarah Palin. That particular complaint is dumb, but want to see what real hypocrisy looks like?

Obama was making closed door deals with drug makers to help get his bill passed, while he was damning the corporate health machine for japping consumers.

Japping customers? As in Japanese being used as a slur. Tell me you didn't actually mean to say that?

[commanderkai]

andyt andyt:

From the article:

$1:

A report last spring by Deloitte Center for Health Solutions said 750,000 Americans travelled abroad for medical care in 2007, and forecast that number would rise to six million by 2010. That trend far outpaces the number of Canadians coming to the U.S. for medical treatment.

Okay, so from 750,000 to six million. In three years. Sounds like something pulled out of a hat.

[andyt]

commanderkai commanderkai:

andyt andyt:

From the article:

$1:

A report last spring by Deloitte Center for Health Solutions said 750,000 Americans travelled abroad for medical care in 2007, and forecast that number would rise to six million by 2010. That trend far outpaces the number of Canadians coming to the U.S. for medical treatment.

Okay, so from 750,000 to six million. In three years. Sounds like something pulled out of a hat.

I know, the Deloitte Center for Health Solutions are just a bunch of commie pinkos out to destroy the very liberties the US gives them. Thank God you can see right thru them.

Do you have any knowledge of their data and methodology? Can you criticized them on that level, or did you just pull your comment out of a hat?

[N_Fiddledog]

DerbyX DerbyX:

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

You're talking about cheaper drugs, right?

This thread concerns a supposed hypocrisy by Sarah Palin. That particular complaint is dumb, but want to see what real hypocrisy looks like?

Obama was making closed door deals with drug makers to help get his bill passed, while he was damning the corporate health machine for japping consumers.

Japping customers? As in Japanese being used as a slur. Tell me you didn't actually mean to say that?

Oh now you're going to fake moral outrage on a common collloquial term of debatable origins?

And you do this when pretty much every thread I've ever seen on Palin eventually degenerates into your side diminishing Palin's sex with disparaging "I'd just like to do her" innuendo? Basically "The woman shouldn't be in politics. She (and by extension women in general) are only good for one thing".

Physician heal thyself (no, wait a minute, we're Canadian. You'll be waiting a week. )

[DerbyX]

commanderkai commanderkai:

Anyway, one talks about 40,000-80,000 US retirees living in Mexico and how there is an unknown number using the Mexican health care system. What? I lived in the United States for a decade, almost, and I didn't rush back to Canada whenever I needed medical care either.

So you didn't rush back to Canada for medical care? So? I've never needed to go to the US. My father when he had his heart attack received prompt (and free) care and was diagnosed, treated, and had 2 stents implanted in 2 days. He received excellent care and he didn't have to sell his house.

commanderkai commanderkai:

I'll put this as a counter. How many thousands of Canadians, Mexicans, Europeans, etc live in the United States and receive the benefits of their health care system? Probably a huge number.

Only the ones that pay for it. On the flip side Americans traveling to Canada, Australia, and the UK are able to get free health care under their system. Hell I received emergency care in both countries and was not charged one dime. Both countries treated me promptly and professionally and that was that.

Think if I needed ER treatment in the US I would get it scott free?

commanderkai commanderkai:

The second article from Reuters is even less clear, since they state that 1 million people from California go to Mexico for health care each year. The issue is, how many people from Mexico legally live in California, or use various migrant worker programs to work in the USA? Probably a great deal, no? How can you make the distinction between American citizens and Mexican citizens going south? They can't, and that's why they didn't.

You are LOOKING for reasons to bash the report. They quoted a very non-mexican name in the article and I doubt very much illegal migrants are heading south knowing they will have to sneak back in.

commanderkai commanderkai:

HARDLY. Look at Michael Moore's movie, for example. Any attempt by any Canadian to compare the US and Canadian health care systems usually results in comments about how x number are uninsured, or so on and so forth. The same can be said about US crime statistics too. It's not just because we're "defending" our health care system, but rather many Canadians like making these comparisons to hide the flaws with our own system.

Moore is not the defining authority. Funny that you are bending over backwards to do what you think others are doing. Once again, Canadians use statistics to defend our system and when US senators attack it we are justified in pointing out life statistics as well as pointing out how many in the US aren't insured.

Hell, Americans wanting to emulate ours doit for us.

[DerbyX]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Oh now you're going to fake moral outrage on a common collloquial term of debatable origins?

And you do this when pretty much every thread I've ever seen on Palin eventually degenerates into your side diminishing Palin's sex with disparaging "I'd just like to do her" innuendo? Basically "The woman shouldn't be in politics. She (and by extension women in general) are only good for one thing".

Physician heal thyself (no, wait a minute, we're Canadian. You'll be waiting a week. )

Fake moral outrage? You use a racial slur no different in origins then saying "jewing" or "gyping" someone and aren't man enough to simply apologize for the inadvertent usage (and for the moment I was considering it inadvertent).

Oh, BTW, your fake moral outrage over comments made about Palin is hypocritical considering the stuff Hillary dealt with.

[commanderkai]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Proximity is relative. Walking down the block to the corner store vs walking a few kms to a different store. Driving 10 minutes to the grocery store or driving 20 minutes to a much further one. Putting the effort into flying means that it is no biggie to spend a few more hours on a plane.

Time spent traveling compared to the time spent doing other activities is the ket factor.

Yes, it is relative. He decided to go to a US health care provider in Miami instead of one closer to home. He made this choice based on how long he'd have to wait in the Canadian system, as well as the types of surgeries available. Proximity, availability, cost. He chose care which was available immediately, at a farther distance, at a much higher cost. Danny chose availability over the other two factors. Danny chose Miami over...let's say Halifax.

This is unlike the case as Palin's example where her family used care 40 years ago, using proximity as the deciding factor. Unlike in Southern Ontario and other highly developed regions, I'd assume that hospitals are few and far between. Choosing a hospital 130 km away is much better than choosing one 200 km away, especially in an emergency.

$1:

It can be used as a criticism about how our system might improve but when compared against the US is ceases to be valid since our systems are designed differently. Its like comparing a truck vs a sports car. Sure they each do the same thing generally but they are both designed for different needs.

Maybe so, the issue is that all sides, both Canadian and American, like comparing US health care to Canadian. This isn't a new phenomenon. If that's what you believe, then I certainly have no qualms with you on this.

$1:

BTW, one factor that almost always gets ignored when comparing us against the US is that the US spends over 2X as much per capita as we do for health care. That factor alone explains how they can afford to have many more specialists/machines so they don't have to wait. We can have their system and ours if we were willing to pay double what we do now.

How much would it cost them to provide the same level of care to every US citizen?

And the US government's spending on health care is massive too. The private system, as much as many would like to play it as such, is not the issue in the United States. The US Government needs to rework how it provides its health care system, into maybe a two-tier system. Interestingly enough, Medicare/Medicaid are the two companies that deny the most claims in the US. The US health care system needs reform, no doubt, but there are huge, and legitimate criticisms on Obama's health care plan.

[commanderkai]

andyt andyt:

I know, the Deloitte Center for Health Solutions are just a bunch of commie pinkos out to destroy the very liberties the US gives them. Thank God you can see right thru them.

Do you have any knowledge of their data and methodology? Can you criticized them on that level, or did you just pull your comment out of a hat?

Do you? Yes, I'm dismissing a massive growth of 5.25 million people going abroad for health care in three years, because I see that as extreme. Don't try acting like you know where they got their number more than I do. You found a convenient number to bolster your political opinions, nothing more.

[DerbyX]

commanderkai commanderkai:

Yes, it is relative. He decided to go to a US health care provider in Miami instead of one closer to home. He made this choice based on how long he'd have to wait in the Canadian system, as well as the types of surgeries available. Proximity, availability, cost. He chose care which was available immediately, at a farther distance, at a much higher cost. Danny chose availability over the other two factors. Danny chose Miami over...let's say Halifax.

I was saying that he choose based speed eliminating proximity as a concern. He wanted quick care and choose to go abroad and pay for it. So what?

commanderkai commanderkai:

This is unlike the case as Palin's example where her family used care 40 years ago, using proximity as the deciding factor. Unlike in Southern Ontario and other highly developed regions, I'd assume that hospitals are few and far between. Choosing a hospital 130 km away is much better than choosing one 200 km away, especially in an emergency.

No it isn't. Using our system for whatever reasons is no different then us using theirs.

commanderkai commanderkai:

Maybe so, the issue is that all sides, both Canadian and American, like comparing US health care to Canadian. This isn't a new phenomenon. If that's what you believe, then I certainly have no qualms with you on this.

Well since you don't recall the aforementioned thread then you won't recall that I consistently say our systems should learn from one another and that they aren't in direct competition. I will however defend our system when flaws are pointed out by highlighting flaws in the system of those attacking it.

commanderkai commanderkai:

And the US government's spending on health care is massive too. The private system, as much as many would like to play it as such, is not the issue in the United States. The US Government needs to rework how it provides its health care system, into maybe a two-tier system. Interestingly enough, Medicare/Medicaid are the two companies that deny the most claims in the US. The US health care system needs reform, no doubt, but there are huge, and legitimate criticisms on Obama's health care plan.

This isn't about Obamacare. There may indeed be criticisms of his plan but their are many more criticisms of their current system and just as many criticisms of whatever plan the republicans want.

[Lemmy]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Fake moral outrage? You use a racial slur no different in origins then saying "jewing" or "gyping" someone and aren't man enough to simply apologize for the inadvertent usage (and for the moment I was considering it inadvertent).


Think if I needed ER treatment in the US I would get it scott free?

Pot and kettle, DerbyX: the term is actually "Scot free" and it's every bit as much a racial slur as "Jewing" or "Gyping" or "Japping".

[andyt]

commanderkai commanderkai:

Do you? Yes, I'm dismissing a massive growth of 5.25 million people going abroad for health care in three years, because I see that as extreme. Don't try acting like you know where they got their number more than I do. You found a convenient number to bolster your political opinions, nothing more.

Yep, right in the article I first put up.

Here's an explanation: as I posted earlier, people in the US are letting their health care coverage lapse because of the recession. As that happens, insurers are increasing premiums to make up the shortfall, (presumably the healthiest people are the ones going without coverage) so that even more people are forced to give up their coverage. This could be forcing greater numbers to get emergency care where it is more affordable, including Mexico. Certainly a lot of people have always gone to Mexico for dental care and plastic surgery, I wouldn't doubt that there are lots of clinics set up right by the border to offer general care as well. Too bad US citizens are not allowed to travel to Cuba. They could get good care for a very reasonable price. In fact for the fist few, I'm sure Fidel would give it to them free for the publicity value,

[andyt]

Lemmy Lemmy:

Pot and kettle, DerbyX: the term is actually "Scot free" and it's every bit as much a racial slur as "Jewing" or "Gyping" or "Japping".

$1:

Scot free has no connection with Scotsmen, frugal or otherwise. It’s an accidental connection, just as it is in hopscotch.
Scot is from an Old Norse word that meant a payment or contribution and which is linked to the modern French écot, a share of communal expenses, as in payer son écot, to pay one’s share. It is a close relative of shot, which at one time could have the same meaning of a contribution or a share of expenses.

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-sco1.htm

[GreenTiger]

I'm not a fan of Sara PAlin. When ever I hear her voice I make sure a barf bag is within reach. What her parents did as far as health care for her family when she was about 5 was something her parents did not her so this article and title are misleading.

It wouldn't suprise me though if she and Todd quitely sneeked across the border to chisel some discounted health care from Canada though.

That by itself wouldn't be too bad except she campaigns so vigourously against health care for folks to legitematly have a problem finding affordable health care in the States. In other words she is full of Sh^t, but that is a self evident truth as knowing that that the Earth is an ellipse and not flat.

She is part of the very long list of American politicians are so completly absorbed into themselves and their political dogmas that it takes wings to fly above the BS. Which is why I'm pursiung immigration to Canada. Where the governemnt is a hell of a lot more tranparent and the government known what it is trying to do.

[DerbyX]

Lemmy Lemmy:

DerbyX DerbyX:

Fake moral outrage? You use a racial slur no different in origins then saying "jewing" or "gyping" someone and aren't man enough to simply apologize for the inadvertent usage (and for the moment I was considering it inadvertent).


Think if I needed ER treatment in the US I would get it scott free?

Pot and kettle, DerbyX: the term is actually "Scot free" and it's every bit as much a racial slur as "Jewing" or "Gyping" or "Japping".

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/scot%20free.html

Only if you think its origins were racist.

$1:

Given the reputation of Scotsmen as being careful with their money we might look to Scotland for the origin of 'scot free'. Wrong again, but at least we are in the right part of the world now. 'Scot' is a Scandinavian word for tax or payment. It came to the UK as a form of redistributive taxation which was levied as early the 13th century as a form of municipal poor relief. The term is a contraction of 'scot and lot'. Scot was the tax and lot, or allotment, was the share given to the poor.

Scot as a term for tax has been used since then to mean many different types of tax. Whatever the tax, the phrase 'scot free' just refers to not paying one's taxes.

No one likes paying tax and people have been getting off scot free since at least the 11th century.

The first collected edition of Anglo-Saxon charters was John Mitchell Kemble's Codex Diplomaticus, published in the 13th century. In that he re-published the Charter of 1066, which included:

"Scotfre and gauelfre, on schire and on hundrede."

[This is easily translatable into modern English on knowing that a gavel was a tax or tribute and a hundred was a subdivion of a county or shire.

[BartSimpson]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

DerbyX DerbyX:

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Obama was making closed door deals with drug makers to help get his bill passed, while he was damning the corporate health machine for japping consumers.

Japping customers? As in Japanese being used as a slur. Tell me you didn't actually mean to say that?

Oh now you're going to fake moral outrage on a common collloquial term of debatable origins?

Derby's just being niggardly with his comprehension of the Queen's English.