[gonavy47]

Trudeau created his own crises. He wouldn't fight to defend this country in WW2. He quickly called out the army to hide behind during the FLQ crisis. What a hypocrite. Not much of a leader. Not even in the running.

[Arctic_Menace]

andyt andyt:

Lemmy Lemmy:

Pearson? What did he do? The flag? What else?

Medicare. CPP. National labor code. Auto Pact. Points system for immigration. (For all you pro immigration peopele).

Dang it, you beat me to it.

[Lemmy]

Arctic_Menace Arctic_Menace:

andyt andyt:

Lemmy Lemmy:

Pearson? What did he do? The flag? What else?

Medicare. CPP. National labor code. Auto Pact. Points system for immigration. (For all you pro immigration peopele).

Dang it, you beat me to it.

Pearson had a minority government and had to appease Tommy Douglas to pass any laws. Douglas, not Pearson, deserves the credit for Medicare and CPP. The Auto Pact was not a good policy, in retrospect. It created branch-plant mentality and on-going dependence on corporate America.

[2Cdo]

gonavy47 gonavy47:

Trudeau created his own crises. He wouldn't fight to defend this country in WW2. He quickly called out the army to hide behind during the FLQ crisis. What a hypocrite. Not much of a leader. Not even in the running.

There's also the point that he helped accelerate the separtist cause in Quebec, and kickstarted Albertas distrust of the east. The man did more to DIVIDE our country than any other PM in our history.

[GreenTiger]

Arctic_Menace Arctic_Menace:

PimpBrewski123 PimpBrewski123:

All y'all are way off the mark.

The greatest was Kim Campbell.

Yeah, sure, and Sarah Palin will be the greatest POTUS ever.

Please don't even think that, that is the stuff nightmares are
Made of.

[Mustang1]

gonavy47 gonavy47:

He quickly called out the army to hide behind during the FLQ crisis.

Huh? A little revisionist history? The FLQ crisis was "created" by Trudeau? I'd be interested in seeing how the terrorist escaped culpability and how Trudeau took the lion's share of guilt.

[Mustang1]

Lemmy Lemmy:

Arctic_Menace Arctic_Menace:

Um, no. He was not the best leader we've ever heard. Was he popular? Yes. Did he help put Canada on the world stage? Yes, and it was a mix of bad and good. He was definitely not our greatest. That honour should belong to either Sir John A. MacDonald or Lester B. Pearson.

Macdonald is certainly a defensible choice, but I think Trudeau had more crises to navigate than John A. And yes, Trudeau's legacy includes some bad (he drove us into debt and he alienated Alberta), but from an objective third-party view, he did as well as anyone could have. The Energy Program, for example, may have pissed off Albertans, but it was the right thing to do for CANADA as a whole.

Pearson? What did he do? The flag? What else? His greatest contribution came before he was PM. He was a good guy, but not a serious candidate for the title. As PM, he piloted the ship but through calm seas. Trudeau took us 'Around the Horn' through the worst possible weather.

This debate is a two-horse race between Macdoanld and Trudeau.

Really? I'd easily offer up Laurier, Bordon, Mackenzie King, Pearson to the mix. Heck, even Uncle Louis get some points.

[Lemmy]

Mustang1 Mustang1:

Really? I'd easily offer up Laurier, Bordon, Mackenzie King, Pearson to the mix. Heck, even Uncle Louis get some points.

I considered them, but dismissed them as "also rans" compared to Trudeau and Macdonald. King totally blew it on Nazi appeasement and was an anti-semite...well, anti anything but WASP. Laurier governed in good times, facing little controversy (Boer War?, not much of big deal, compared with other PMs' problems) and most of his successes were continuations of Macdonald's programs (rails, settling the west, developing domestic industry, etc). Borden should have kept Canada out of WWI, which was a horrible European war, fought for no good reasons, that Canada had no businesses being part of. Pearson's greatest achievements were really Douglas's achievements and Uncle Louis, like Laurier, governed in such good times that there was little need for a great leader (even a turkey can fly in a strong enough wind). If King hadn't been such a kook and either Laurier or Borden had told Britain to fuck off when they asked for support for the maintenance of Empire, I'd think more highly of them. I'll stand by my "two horse race" contention.

[kenmore]

2Cdo 2Cdo:

gonavy47 gonavy47:

Trudeau created his own crises. He wouldn't fight to defend this country in WW2. He quickly called out the army to hide behind during the FLQ crisis. What a hypocrite. Not much of a leader. Not even in the running.

There's also the point that he helped accelerate the separtist cause in Quebec, and kickstarted Albertas distrust of the east. The man did more to DIVIDE our country than any other PM in our history.

Think you might want to do some Québec history lessons .. the separatist movement started post WW 2... Trudeau didn't accelerate it, he told the separatist the benefits of a united Canada and said that no province held special status.. he also told Alberta where to go.. GREAT MAN.. ABSOLUTE BEST PM IN OUR HISTORY!

[Arctic_Menace]

GreenTiger GreenTiger:

Arctic_Menace Arctic_Menace:

PimpBrewski123 PimpBrewski123:

All y'all are way off the mark.

The greatest was Kim Campbell.

Yeah, sure, and Sarah Palin will be the greatest POTUS ever.

Please don't even think that, that is the stuff nightmares are
Made of.

All the more reason why you and sensible Americans should move up here instead of trying to change your country. Leave the change to Obama.

[Mustang1]

Lemmy Lemmy:

King totally blew it on Nazi appeasement and was an anti-semite...well, anti anything but WASP.

Many blew it on Nazi appeasement (careful about 20/20 hindsight), but King still answered the call when it mattered and led Canada - as an independent nation - into its finest military achievement. That's the epitome of leadership. And what about advocation of the state's role in social-welfare? What about wooing the Progressives? His handling of the Chanak crisis? The Rowell-
Sirois Commission? His friendship with FDR? The beginnings of the Welfare State?

Hardly an "also ran"

$1:

Laurier governed in good times, facing little controversy (Boer War?, not much of big deal, compared with other PMs' problems) and most of his successes were continuations of Macdonald's programs (rails, settling the west, developing domestic industry, etc).

Huh? The Manitoba School Crisis? The Boer War? Reciprocity? The Naval Crisis? Alaska Boundary Dispute? That's a "little controversy"? Not according to history or its chroniclers. Laurier's politics of compromise catapult him into an unique place in Canadian political history.

$1:

Borden should have kept Canada out of WWI, which was a horrible European war, fought for no good reasons, that Canada had no businesses being part of.

Nope. Canada was automatically at war when Britain declared it. Borden help forge our international Independence with his insistence on the Imperial War Cabinet - a major shift in Dominion/Imperial relations and a massive shift in Canadian political history - he, and Smuts, helped transform the structure of the British Empire. Add to that his ability to create the CEF - the largest army to cross the Atlantic in history - and reform the voting acts and he becomes one of Canada's most significant PMs.

Oh...and WWI was a necessary conflict. Ask the Belgians.

$1:

Pearson's greatest achievements were really Douglas's achievements and Uncle Louis, like Laurier, governed in such good times that there was little need for a great leader (even a turkey can fly in a strong enough wind).

Pearson's rebuilding of the Liberal Party, co-operative federalism, The Bi-Bi Commission and his masterful maneuverings during minority governments all should get recognition.

$1:

If King hadn't been such a kook and either Laurier or Borden had told Britain to fuck off when they asked for support for the maintenance of Empire, I'd think more highly of them.

Actually, you're wrong - Laurier did stand up to the British Empire during his compromises to the Boer War and the Naval Crisis (the Naval Service Bill) - he certainly didn't give what they initially wanted - besides, maybe you should also look at what the contemporary populace wanted as well. And Bordon's insistence for an Imperial War Cabinet and a seat at Versailles also warrant respect.

$1:

I'll stand by my "two horse race" contention.

Your prerogative.

[Mustang1]

Had this somewhere - but when Granatstein and Hillmer had historians rank Canada's best PMs (in a similar fashion and categories as the U.S. with "great", "near great", "average" etc, the list had Mackenzie King as #1, Macdonald #2, Laurier #3 (all "great") and Saint-Laurent at #4 or "near great". Last? Kim Campbell

[gonavy47]

2Cdo 2Cdo:

gonavy47 gonavy47:

Trudeau created his own crises. He wouldn't fight to defend this country in WW2. He quickly called out the army to hide behind during the FLQ crisis. What a hypocrite. Not much of a leader. Not even in the running.

There's also the point that he helped accelerate the separtist cause in Quebec, and kickstarted Albertas distrust of the east. The man did more to DIVIDE our country than any other PM in our history.

[kenmore]

Best leader and best PM... ever!

[Lemmy]

Mustang1 Mustang1:

Many blew it on Nazi appeasement (careful about 20/20 hindsight), but King still answered the call when it mattered and led Canada - as an independent nation - into its finest military achievement. That's the epitome of leadership. And what about advocation of the state's role in social-welfare? What about wooing the Progressives? His handling of the Chanak crisis? The Rowell-
Sirois Commission? His friendship with FDR? The beginnings of the Welfare State?

Hardly an "also ran"

Valid points, all. Hindsight is easy on appeasement, especially when you consider the enormous costs of WWI so recent on everyone's minds in the 1930s, but still, they were Nazis, for Christ's sake. Surely JFK and Churchill weren't the only ones who got it right.

Mustang1 Mustang1:

Huh? The Manitoba School Crisis? The Boer War? Reciprocity? The Naval Crisis? Alaska Boundary Dispute? That's a "little controversy"? Not according to history or its chroniclers. Laurier's politics of compromise catapult him into an unique place in Canadian political history.

Good counters also. Do they outweigh what Trudeau or Macdionald accomplished? No, certainly not in terms of legacy. Good moves for the day, but not the sort of lasting contributions of Macdonald or Trudeau.

Mustang1 Mustang1:

Nope. Canada was automatically at war when Britain declared it. Borden help forge our international Independence with his insistence on the Imperial War Cabinet - a major shift in Dominion/Imperial relations and a massive shift in Canadian political history - he, and Smuts, helped transform the structure of the British Empire. Add to that his ability to create the CEF - the largest army to cross the Atlantic in history - and reform the voting acts and he becomes one of Canada's most significant PMs.

Oh...and WWI was a necessary conflict. Ask the Belgians.

Had Borden told the British to get stuffed, that would have moved Canadian independence up several decades. He missed that chance. And I don't see how Belgium's problems were in any way Canada's. WWI was a fool's war, fought out of Nationalistic bravado. It was the great folly of the 20th century.

Mustang1 Mustang1:

Pearson's rebuilding of the Liberal Party, co-operative federalism, The Bi-Bi Commission and his masterful maneuverings during minority governments all should get recognition.

Again, good points, but not in the same league as Trudea's or Macdonald's accomplishments.

Mustang1 Mustang1:

Actually, you're wrong - Laurier did stand up to the British Empire during his compromises to the Boer War and the Naval Crisis (the Naval Service Bill) - he certainly didn't give what they initially wanted - besides, maybe you should also look at what the contemporary populace wanted as well. And Bordon's insistence for an Imperial War Cabinet and a seat at Versailles also warrant respect.

Of course, Laurier should be lauded for keeping Canadian involvement in South Africa to a minimum. But I see it as an opportunity for Canada to have become truly independent that was lost. Great leadership is often looking beyond what the populace wants and having vision for the future (not visions OF the future, like King and his seances brought. ). That's where Macdonald and Trudeau put any other PMs to shame. Their visions continue to shape Canada. No other Canadian leaders, save perhaps Douglas, can make that claim to any similar degree.

Excellent points, though, Mustang!