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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:46 pm
 


CanadianJeff CanadianJeff:
BeaverFever BeaverFever:
$1:
Here's an animated graph. It shows what the US temperatures from GISS looked like back in 1999, and what they look like now after they've been Hansified (or adjusted by Hansen, depending on the term you prefer).


Look pretty similar, except they start to diverge more after 1960, that divergence issue mentioned earlier. Same overall trends in both though, the biggest difference is the data after 1990 and the first graph from doesnt go past 99 so it makes the second one look more inflated because it uses data to 2008.

Also the chart is labelled "Temperature Anomaly" not "Average Temperature" so Im not sure what they're actually charting here...is this an error rate? Is this a graph showing the dif between measured temps and estimated temps from sources like tree rings?

Id be carful posting all these little data snippets and factoids cirulating the net that only an expert can make sense of, unless you're linking to an article or site meant for public consumption, none of us really know whats being discussed.


nothing 5 minutes of research didn't fix.

What that graph is is a comparison of the temperature of the atmosphere and oceans to a baseline temperature which is graphed as 0 degrees on the y axis. Now the graph doesn't tell us the base year which it's using to compared the rise or fall in temperature but the most common for these graphs is from about the late 1800s to today.

so looking for example at where the graph ends during 1999 you can see the graph ends about halfway between 0 and 0.5 but when you add in the data at the end of the line up to 2008 watch how the line goes up....as in an increase in temperature....

Basically this graph is saying that over the last 9 years the average global temperature has risen about 1/4 of a degree. Not as harsh as AGW would have you believe but to post such a thing when discussing about how scientists e-mails show they were trying to "hide the decline" then post this which shows and INCREASE in temperature just goes to show that.....well...fiddledog how can you believe in hiding any decline when the data you post as proof of no AGW shows the opposite of a decline?

Just a thought....you know...for consistency. Are you a believer in global cooling or that AGW is not nearly as bad as thought.



How does one know if the data after 1999 is accurate. These people have been caught fudging.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:00 pm
 


Who knows. He just posted the graph and not the source. And it's not the skeptic crowd that was caught messing with the data. It was the AGW crowd who I'm sure would gladly tell you that global temperature has increased more then 0.5 degrees in the past 9 years.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:22 am
 


Theres not a big difference in the "Official" government figure and the supposedly "fudged" figure anyway.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:25 am
 


BeaverFever BeaverFever:
Look pretty similar, except they start to diverge more after 1960, that divergence issue mentioned earlier. Same overall trends in both though, the biggest difference is the data after 1990 and the first graph from doesnt go past 99 so it makes the second one look more inflated because it uses data to 2008.


I think you'll find the trends there are quite different. I have another link (with a source) to an unanimated version of both graphs. You can see clearer there. I'll post that at the bottom.

You know who James Hansen is, right? He's kind of the Phil Jones of NASA/GISS. A little wackier maybe. Hansen is famous for adjusting the older temps down, and the newer ones up. This tends to make supposed warming more obvious to the naked eye on a graph.

$1:
Also the chart is labelled "Temperature Anomaly" not "Average Temperature" so Im not sure what they're actually charting here...is this an error rate?


You can think of anomaly graphs as graphs of average temperatures, I think. You won't be wrong as general concept, as I understand it, just maybe not technically correct. Think of them more as graphing of what differs from the average showing how the average temperatures change. I'm horrible at explaining that sort of thing. Get Zip to do it. He tells me he's a math man.

Anomaly graphs are quite common in the climate biz. I know that much.

$1:
Is this a graph showing the dif between measured temps and estimated temps from sources like tree rings?


No. They're using the same raw data. Hansen has made adjustments. There are good reasons for making adjustments, however Hansen's always tend to adjust in a way which increases warming. Not sometimes, or even usually. Always. I'll say that until somebody shows me different. OK...I could be wrong. Will you settle for almost always?

This much I'm pretty sure of. When you consider the sorts of things they're supposed to be adjusting for, it doesn't make sense that they'd always, or even usually trend up.

It's not just Hansen. Here's another animated graph. I think this one's from Warren Meyers. I'm not sure, but I think his training is in economics. The graph appears to show NOAA adjustments.

Image


$1:
Id be carful posting all these little data snippets and factoids cirulating the net that only an expert can make sense of, unless you're linking to an article or site meant for public consumption, none of us really know whats being discussed.


Very well. That animated graph from the previous page is one you see many variations of around the internet. I'm pretty sure the source is Joseph D'Aleo. He's a meteorologist, and the co-founder of the Weather Channel. Here's a link to what appears to be the 2 graphs, one above the other from D'aleo's site, Icecap.

http://icecap.us/images/uploads/NASATEMPS.pdf

Sorry CJ, I know you had questions, but I forget what they were. Was it about base periods? Try this one from Icecap.

http://icecap.us/index.php/go/joes-blog ... ier_again/


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:13 pm
 


N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:
Get Zip to do it. He tells me he's a math man.



I don't think I've said that.

And I probably could explain anomalies but then you'd move on to another site, another graph to see if that sticks. It gets a bit boring.

Pluggy threw up a pretty advanced math/physics paper the other day. I asked him whether he supported the basic conjecture of the paper (that the so-called greenhouse effect doesn't exist because it would be a violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics). No answer. He juts threw it out to see if it would stick.

I don't think you need much math with this one anyways. The fact is that the heavyweights among the skeptics--i.e. the ones who've actually published research in relevant fields--readily admit a rise in global average temperature over the past 100 - 150 years. Which, of course, you would expect with a large increase in CO2.


Last edited by Zipperfish on Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:58 pm
 


Interesting article with a Canadian connection:

$1:
'M and M' stick in craw of climate-change crew
By Richard Foot, Canwest News ServiceDecember 5, 2009

Steve McIntyre, 62, is a Toronto retiree. He plays squash, dabbles with numbers and insists he never set out to stir up any trouble.


So why does his name appear again and again - in the most unflattering ways - in hundreds of e-mails written by the world's most influential climate change scientists, that were mysteriously taken from a computer in Britain last month and published on the Internet?


In these private messages, McIntyre is called everything from a "bozo" and a "moron" to a "playground bully."


"In my opinion," said one e-mail written by Benjamin Santer, a senior climatologist with the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California, "Stephen McIntyre is the self-appointed Joe McCarthy of climate science."


The "climategate" e-mails have sparked a scandal - just ahead of next week's global warming summit in Copenhagen - for suggesting climatologists may have manipulated data to exaggerate the threat of global warming and conspired to keep contrary points of view out of the scientific journals.


But the e-mails are also conspicuous for their repeated, nasty references to two Canadians - McIntyre and economist Ross McKitrick - who have become a serious thorn in the side of climatologists and others who say the planet is under serious threat from man-made global warming.


Although little-known in Canada, McIntyre and McKitrick - or M and M as they're called in climate change circles - have since 2003 put forward evidence of faulty calculations in some of the key scientific studies behind the reports of the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.


Their work has drawn the attention of the U.S. Congress, the U.S. National Academy of Sciences and the Wall Street Journal, which last month called them "the climate change gang's most dangerous apostates."


McIntyre, a Toronto mining analyst and speculator, became intrigued by the climate change issue when the Kyoto Protocol was up for debate in 2002.


He was skeptical of a key piece of science in the IPCC reports of the time - a graph, based on research by U.S. climatologist Michael Mann, that showed Earth's temperatures had remained relatively stable over the past thousand years then began rising suddenly in the 20th century.


The graph, shaped like a sideways hockey stick, became one of the most convincing illustrations in Al Gore's documentary An Inconvenient Truth, which rallied millions to the cause of global warming. But it reminded McIntyre of the promotional graphs and statistics commonly used by mining promoters in search of investors.


He said he decided - purely out of curiosity and not because he wanted to shake up the global warming debate - to carry out some due diligence on the numbers.


Replicating the arcane calculations of climate modelling science would be an impossible task for most people. But McIntyre had been a math prizewinner in high school, had studied pure mathematics at the University of Toronto and had won, but turned down, a mathematics scholarship to the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, choosing a business career instead.


"I read Mann's paper and thought, 'What this looks to me is like really overblown and high falutin' language for fairly simple linear regressions and matrix algebra. I figured it would be like doing a big crossword puzzle, so I went at it," he said in a recent interview.


"I had no particular expectations that it would be wrong, I just thought it would be interesting. It sounds bizarre in retrospect, but I take up odd interests from time to time."


McIntyre contacted Ross McKitrick, a University of Guelph statistical economist who was also analyzing the science behind the IPCC reports. Together they unearthed evidence that Mann's calculations were predisposed to producing a hockey stick-shaped graph, with sharply rising temperatures in the 20th Century.


They also showed that Mann's calculations ignored the data showing a major warming trend in the 15th century, much like the warming of the 20th Century.


"That discovery hit me like a bombshell," wrote one scientist in the MIT Technology Review in 2004. "Suddenly the 'hockey stick,' the poster child of the global warming community, turns out to be an artifact of poor mathematics."


M and M's findings sparked hearings on the science of global warming by the U.S. Congress, and an investigation by the National Academy of Sciences. Their report concluded that while the wider science behind 20th century global warming remains valid, the hockey stick graph and other long-term temperature models were fraught with "uncertainties" and that Mann's calculations "tended to bias the shape of (hockey stick) reconstructions."


Mann was required to publish a retraction about some of his statistical methods in the science journal Nature.


In 2007, M and M scored again, finding errors in NASA's own long-term temperature records. The agency was forced to issue a correction, stating that 1934, not 1998, was the warmest year recorded in the United States.


This year, M and M have also raised questions about the accuracy of another hockey stick-shaped graph, this one by a British climatologist. The Canadians showed that the British graph - also showing drastically warmer 20th century temperatures than in the past - is based on tree ring samples taken from a mere 12 tree cores in a single region of Russia.


McKitrick said at first it was "very stressful" questioning the work of the tight-knit climate change science community. "When we first came out with our criticisms, it was a pretty lonely and difficult time."


For one thing, their work was shunned by the main academic climate science journals, which forced them to put their findings on the Internet instead. McIntyre's blog, climateaudit.org has since exploded in popularity, receiving millions of hits each year.


Scientists such as Mann have also denounced M and M as "frauds" and called their research "pure crap." Others have accused them of being secretly sponsored by the fossil fuel industry, a charge both McIntyre and McKitrick deny.


McKitrick said his only salary comes from the University of Guelph, and while he is a senior fellow at the Fraser Institute - a think tank skeptical of global warming, which has received funding from some oil companies - his affiliation to the institute is unpaid.


As for McIntyre, he said he's not paid by anyone, nor formally affiliated with any agency or industry. He's just an old math whiz with time on his hands, and an eccentric hobby.


"I don't know why I'm doing it," he said. "I have no particular cause, and I'm not trying to change public policies. I sort of like doing it, and I'm good at it."


If scientists were really interested in learning the truth about global warming, McKitrick said he and McIntyre would be encouraged for contributing to the debate. Instead, they are seen as unwelcome outsiders, meddling where they have no business.


He said many of the world's top climate modellers have circled the wagons, denied them access to raw data and cast personal aspersions against the pair.


"Look at the e-mails," said McKitrick. "There's such strong tribalism in the field.


"The extraordinary thing about the climate issue, is that the scientific principle of critical thinking, of exploring the data and stating your views regardless of what your senior colleagues think - that idea has been lost in this field."


Not all climatologists have dismissed their work.


"M and M need to be taken seriously," said Judith Curry - a global warming believer - who chairs the School of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences at the Georgia Institute of Technology.


"Sometimes scientists can't see the forest for the trees until someone from the outside steps in and looks at this with fresh eyes. What McIntyre has done is elevate the level of statistical analysis used in constructing the paleo temperature record."


While McKitrick said he's dubious about the threat of climate change, and thinks his research has helped cast doubt on such fears, McIntyre - despite the demonization of him by his opponents - said he really doesn't know what to think.


"I honestly don't know whether it is a big problem, a little problem or a medium problem," he said. "And I don't think the skeptics have proven that global warming is not a problem."


What he will say is that the world needs clear, indisputable evidence of climate change - not scientific claims by the IPCC of rapidly rising modern temperatures, based on what he calls questionable data and "untested, inaccurate calculations."

© Copyright (c) Canwest News Service
http://www.canada.com/technology/stick+craw+climate+change+crew/2307733/story.html


I think the most interesting point of the article is that even the "debunkers" of much of the global warming research and their supporters are still believers of global warming or at least agnostic and open-minded on the subject.

[edit]NOTE: M and M's affiliations with the Fraser Institute and Mining Analysts should raise red flags however as the former is a right-wing, industry-friendly think tank and the latter suggests vested interests or at least sympathy towards a generally eco-unfriendly industry.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:23 pm
 


McIntyre and McKitrick have done some good work, notably pointing out Mann's statistical error in the so-called hockey. And they've reviewed the raw data in just about every major climate research paper over the last few years, particularly the ones that use proxy data and non-parametric statistical.

And of course, he'll tell you that he just wants to see the data and that these scientists are hiding it from him--but that's only part of the story. If you give him the raw data, he'll back a week later asking for other data, or why the researcher cited this person, or why the researcher chose this kind of analysis, or why they used this axis, or why they used that scale. Not only that, he encourages his readers to do the same. So the researchers get inundated with hundreds of emails. Many of them at first try to be helpful and soon realize that it's a futile, endless exercise, so they stop. And then McIntyre will start in that they're hiding the data, or not being forthright.

So that's the context for some of the researchers' hesitancy in dealing with McIntyre and others. Not excusing the actions of Jones et al, but giving another side of the story that perhaps people don't realize.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:35 pm
 


[bonk] [but] [but] PDT_Armataz_01_40 [angel] PDT_Armataz_01_05 [hockey] [but] [but] [but] :lol: [B-o] [rtfm] PDT_Armataz_01_36 PDT_Armataz_01_06 [cheer] [cheer] [cheer]


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:39 pm
 


I learned a little tidbit about McIntyre today I didn't know before...

$1:
McIntyre, who spent decades in mineral exploration, was involved in exposing the Bre‑X fraud in Canada several years ago. Bre‑X was a gold mining company promising fat profits on a new proprietary technology for ore deposits in Borneo; McIntyre smelled a rat and demanded the raw data. Bre‑X collapsed shortly after.


http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/P ... n.asp?pg=2

So it sounds like he had a history of being a fly in the ointment even before he discovered climate. Doesn't like fraud.

I still think he should win the Order of Canada. He's one of Canada's unsung heroes. The fact that crooks don't like him, and offer cheap excuses to the gullible as to why they won't release data to him, only makes him more credible in my books. The criminals on CSI Miami don't like it when Horatio starts sniffing around either.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:55 pm
 


Oh no, you didnt just cite CSI Miami, did you? Probably the cheeziest cop show on the tube! I hate David Caruso, what a crap actor!


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:46 pm
 


I wonder what Stevey M would look like in a pair of sunglasses.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 6:21 pm
 


Zipperfish Zipperfish:
So that's the context for some of the researchers' hesitancy in dealing with McIntyre and others. Not excusing the actions of Jones et al, but giving another side of the story that perhaps people don't realize.


Just curious, where is this context coming from? Like, where did you read it?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 6:47 pm
 


commanderkai commanderkai:
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
So that's the context for some of the researchers' hesitancy in dealing with McIntyre and others. Not excusing the actions of Jones et al, but giving another side of the story that perhaps people don't realize.


Just curious, where is this context coming from? Like, where did you read it?


I've been a regular reader of both Real Climate (to which Michael Mann and other AGW proponent scientists contribute regularly) and Climate Audit (the site run by Steve McIntyre) for a few years.. It's mostly in there, especially in the comments sections.


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