[Thanos]

Not to asound too smug or anything, but I have a very good friend who's near the very top rank of the OTP Fund management group. This guy is a die-hard capitialist and a borderline psycho hockey fan. To suggest that this person I know very well, and anyone who he would work with, would tolerate a loser or would operate in a such manner as to cause a professional sports team that is somehow involved with the OTP tank out, is absolutely ludicris. This is like taking delusional Truther, Birther, or DaVinci Code paranoia and attempting to graft it onto sports. It's nuts and doesn't hold up against the slightest examination. John Ferguson Jr wanted to build a winner, but just didn't have the skills or smarts to do it. Steve Stavro wanted to build a winner, and came very close in the Fletcher/Gilmour years. Hell, even an evil old fuck like Harold Ballard wanted a winner, even if he was so out to lunch that he never figured it out that his meddling, various manias, and tight-fistedness was exactly what ended up destroying the Leafs.

Incompetence, owner interference, or bad luck are altogether separate issues. Suggesting that the woes of a losing franchise are due to something conspiratorial in nature is just plain stupid.

[Dayseed]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

LOL, were just lucky OTP hasnt broken the Leafs up into several minor league teams and sold them off one by one.

How on earth do you even think that would work? That the Teacher's Pension Plan would take some sort of vote on one of their many holdings as some sort of "fuckah you whales!" (see last Saturday's South Park) to the fans that pay the money what funds their pension?

The Ontario Teachers have become some sort of scape-goat for the problem of the Leafs...yet Ferguson and the MLSE honchos that dabble in hockey-trades seem to skate away easily by the very same fans.

[BeaverFever]

well, for one, the article points out how the Leafs dont develop talented draft picks but prefer to instead buy established free agents that dont work together. It also suggests that this is the case with the executives selected to work above the bench in the executive boardrooms. Its not about Burke sucking, its about how he will be able to work with other executives who are above and below him.

Tell you what, Im not so into hockey that I want to go round and round on this, if the leafs make the playoffs this year, Ill owe you a pint of your favourite beer. Make it two.

[Dayseed]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

well, for one, the article points out how the Leafs dont develop talented draft picks but prefer to instead buy established free agents that dont work together.

The article is old...and before Burke. Otherwise, you can't really explain why Nazem Kadri is back with the Knights this season, unless Burke wants to let him develop and get experience as a Canadian Junior before slowly bringing him into the NHL. Once upon a time...say back before the salary cap, oh yes, the Leafs did that in spades.

But it was working for them. They were making it to the semi-finals. And it seems to work damn well for the Yankees too.

$1:

It also suggests that this is the case with the executives selected to work above the bench in the executive boardrooms. Its not about Burke sucking, its about how he will be able to work with other executives who are above and below him.

Burke wouldn't have taken the job if he thought he was going to have to be a pussy. Ferguson on the other hand. Remember, the article is old.

$1:

Tell you what, Im not so into hockey that I want to go round and round on this, if the leafs make the playoffs this year, Ill owe you a pint of your favourite beer. Make it two.

If you're not that into hockey, you shouldn't have used ONE article as the sole gun in your arsenal to pick a fight. Once other people started pointing out what's changed in Leafs Nation, you should have started to listen, rather than puff up your chest more and cling harder to that article.

[Mustang1]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

well, for one, the article points out how the Leafs dont develop talented draft picks but prefer to instead buy established free agents that dont work together. It also suggests that this is the case with the executives selected to work above the bench in the executive boardrooms. Its not about Burke sucking, its about how he will be able to work with other executives who are above and below him.

Tell you what, Im not so into hockey that I want to go round and round on this, if the leafs make the playoffs this year, Ill owe you a pint of your favourite beer. Make it two.

So...you're not going to give us any real hockey solutions? Didn't think so...but then, that's what i called two posts ago.

Maybe next time instead of jumping on the Leaf-bashing bandwagon, you could just concede your utter lack of hockey knowledge and leave the wannabe stuff (like the phantom OTP telling Burke what to do - dodged that one too) to other fakes.

Thanks.

[Mustang1]

Dayseed Dayseed:

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

well, for one, the article points out how the Leafs dont develop talented draft picks but prefer to instead buy established free agents that dont work together.

The article is old...and before Burke. Otherwise, you can't really explain why Nazem Kadri is back with the Knights this season, unless Burke wants to let him develop and get experience as a Canadian Junior before slowly bringing him into the NHL. Once upon a time...say back before the salary cap, oh yes, the Leafs did that in spades.

But it was working for them. They were making it to the semi-finals. And it seems to work damn well for the Yankees too.

$1:

It also suggests that this is the case with the executives selected to work above the bench in the executive boardrooms. Its not about Burke sucking, its about how he will be able to work with other executives who are above and below him.

Burke wouldn't have taken the job if he thought he was going to have to be a pussy. Ferguson on the other hand. Remember, the article is old.

$1:

Tell you what, Im not so into hockey that I want to go round and round on this, if the leafs make the playoffs this year, Ill owe you a pint of your favourite beer. Make it two.

If you're not that into hockey, you shouldn't have used ONE article as the sole gun in your arsenal to pick a fight. Once other people started pointing out what's changed in Leafs Nation, you should have started to listen, rather than puff up your chest more and cling harder to that article.

Simple answer - he got caught.

[BeaverFever]

so, if all the right actions have been taken, what in your opinion explains this current season?

[Mustang1]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

so, if all the right actions have been taken, what in your opinion explains this current season?

Sorry...i don't answer to someone that bitches out on basic knowledge, apes articles and really doesn't know squat about hockey.

I'll answer you when you answer me, until then, dodge away!

[Lemmy]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

so, if all the right actions have been taken, what in your opinion explains this current season?

Uhhh, cleaning house and starting from scratch = losing. If Burke is making the right moves, the Leafs will continue to lose over the next five seasons. That's what happens when a team re-builds properly.

[BeaverFever]

$1:

If Burke is making the right moves, the Leafs will continue to lose over the next five seasons. That's what happens when a team re-builds properly.

THANK YOU. That is a great answer! Only time will tell, and its a long road, I'm sure.

Mustang, calling me a bitch, well that level of hostility is just uncalled for. Pardon me for being a skeptic and not holding a candle for a team that has famously failed to perform consistently for a long long time. I told you, I dont have to be a chicken to know what an egg is nor do I have to be able to lay one myself to know when its gone rotten.

What I do know is that something is systemically wrong when undesirable outcomes are reproduced over and over again. Is Burke going to "make the right moves?" I dont know. There will be signs along the way though if that is the case but I am jaded to the point where I will need to see those with my own eyes to believe anything has really changed.

[Mustang1]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Mustang, calling me a bitch, well that level of hostility is just uncalled for.

I actually didn't call you a "bitch" - i wrote that you, "bitch out", and that's true. Don't like it? I don't care.

$1:

Pardon me for being a skeptic and not holding a candle for a team that has famously failed to perform consistently for a long long time.

You're not skeptic (that would assume informed analysis), you're a wannabe that doesn't know squat. In fact, you're so insecure, you couldn't even admit it.

$1:

I told you, I dont have to be a chicken to know what an egg is nor do I have to be able to lay one myself to know when its gone rotten.

Oh...so if we follow your fallacious logic, then you know that the Leafs are a hockey team that currently is in last place. Bravo, Don Cherry! Good for you, because evidently you can't figure out why they're there or how they can dig themselves out. Just stick to calling out chickens - you're good at it.

$1:

I dont know.

Stop. Right. There. That's the most profound thing you've posted on this thread. Don't ruin it.

$1:

There will be signs along the way though if that is the case but I am jaded to the point where I will need to see those with my own eyes to believe anything has really changed.

Again, you've claimed that all you can do is make rudimentary observations so what makes you think you'll even know when a changed as occurred? Check the standings? Brilliant. You seem to put a lot of stock in your utter lack of hockey understanding. Maybe that's your biggest fault.

[BeaverFever]

What insight have you brought to this debate?

Reason for their chronic underperformance for most of the past 40 years:
"Oh they weren't hiring the right guys to run the team"

Reason why the problem is solved:
"....oh but now they just did, so everythings ok now."

Wow, youre some expert yourself

Even if they finally got it right this time, why did it take so long for them do so? Got an answer for that?

Your biggest fault is that you cant see the big picture of organizational dysfunction and monopoly market economics because to your too fixated on the sticks and pucks. You cant see the forest for the trees.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Ok we have a pretty good idea why the Leafs have had a such a long hard road and have had some extremely sucky years. This year, they may be losing but one thing I've noticed is, unlike previous years, when they get behind they are NOT giving up.
Many of their loses have been simply because they were out-goaltended, which isn't too hard with Toskala between the pipes.
How can they improve the team? It's easy, the press needs to back the fuck off a bit, and from what I've seen, some of the press have very little hockey/business knowledge. Let the players get used to each other ie: positional awareness, where their teammates are and like to be on the ice.
This may be the Leaf's worst start in their history but I have seen one thing that's been suspiciously absent from the team for years, heart and spirit. Sure, they've had SOME players on their team with these attributes at times, but it's been far too long since the entire team had some. This is a squad that realizes hockey games consist of THREE periods, not just two.

This rebuild is going to take awhile, and despite the losses, I'm not going to get disheartened. At least they are only losing by a goal most of their games and not getting blown cuz they have floaters on the ice. Even on that last road trip they were on, they only managed to win one game but came away with 5 points on that road trip.
The only way I can think of to improve the team is keep Toskala out of the damn net!!

[Mustang1]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

What insight have you brought to this debate?

Reason for their chronic underperformance for most of the past 40 years:
"Oh they weren't hiring the right guys to run the team"

Reason why the problem is solved:
"....oh but now they just did, so everythings ok now."

Wow, youre some expert yourself

Even if they finally got it right this time, why did it take so long for them do so? Got an answer for that?

Your biggest fault is that you cant see the big picture of organizational dysfunction and monopoly market economics because to your too fixated on the sticks and pucks. You cant see the forest for the trees.

Ewww...someone's getting upset. Want a tissue, princess? Unlike you, i don't run to a magazine article to make my points - bring the author, we'll talk to him, but you're nothing more than a parrot.

Your biggest fault is that this a discussion that is clearly beyond your meager hockey tether. You've been called out by numerous people on this thread and like the intellectual chicken you are, you dodged their salient questions. I've asked you repeatedly what Burke should have done differently and you waffle, shuffle and dodge, but you still can't answer because you don't know.

Here's a collection of questions/challenges that you've run from:

"They don't need to read books...they needed to hire experienced hockey men like Brian Burke and Nonis. How is that detrimental to the team?"

"Again, what specifically makes you think managment doesn't take notice?"

"what should Burke have done differently or what should he do?"

"You show me where the OTP specifically has torpedoed hockey decisions (and this, of course flies in the face of their bottom line as PLAYOFFS MAKE MORE MONEY!)"

"You demonstrate where exactly the hockey team has to compete with the Raptors or TFC for money at the expense of its operations."

"Oh...and while you're fumbling around with that, maybe you could explain how this was an issue prior to MLSE's takeover in 2003. This means you explain why Stavro wasn't interested in building a winner."

"How is Burke handcuffed by MLSE?"

All asked or challenged and all dodged by you. Piss off.


What have i brought to the debate? Corrections to your litany of errors, misteps and misinterpretations. I'm not about to get into anything beyond that with you because you've demonstrated that you don't know anything. What would we debate? What you don't get? Pearls before swine.

Go back to Wii 2009, the sports fans are talking here.

[Mustang1]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Ok we have a pretty good idea why the Leafs have had a such a long hard road and have had some extremely sucky years. This year, they may be losing but one thing I've noticed is, unlike previous years, when they get behind they are NOT giving up.
Many of their loses have been simply because they were out-goaltended, which isn't too hard with Toskala between the pipes.
How can they improve the team? It's easy, the press needs to back the fuck off a bit, and from what I've seen, some of the press have very little hockey/business knowledge. Let the players get used to each other ie: positional awareness, where their teammates are and like to be on the ice.
This may be the Leaf's worst start in their history but I have seen one thing that's been suspiciously absent from the team for years, heart and spirit. Sure, they've had SOME players on their team with these attributes at times, but it's been far too long since the entire team had some. This is a squad that realizes hockey games consist of THREE periods, not just two.

This rebuild is going to take awhile, and despite the losses, I'm not going to get disheartened. At least they are only losing by a goal most of their games and not getting blown cuz they have floaters on the ice. Even on that last road trip they were on, they only managed to win one game but came away with 5 points on that road trip.
The only way I can think of to improve the team is keep Toskala out of the damn net!!

I agree. The Defense was beefed up in the offseason. Drafting (which, i think can be overrated) became a priority. Goal-tending was addressed (the Monster signing was a real coup). And Burke is adept at exploiting other avenues of player acquisition, such as the NCAA. Give them time...see if Burke can't continue to move overpriced, long term deals (like Blake) and play the free-agent market well.

Oh...and Toskala needs to be played if only to showcase him for a future trade. His states are horrible, but he is a NHL goalie and maybe, just maybe, some desperate team with goal-tending woes might overpay for him at the trade deadline. But to do that, he's got to look better and he needs some ice time for that (and the Monster can't be expected to Kiprusoff the season)