[Thanos]

Newfy Newfy:

I just don't understand how so many Americans can be so scared of a national health care service. Of course the ones protesting can probably afford to pay their medical bills. I know no one likes to pay more tax but sureley a tax which will give free healthcare to all is a small price to pay. The British NHS may not be perfect but it is still very good.

And if they're that worried about getting the level of care they want they can still go private as we here in Britain can still do if you can afford it.

The fact that they're comparing Obamas' ideas to Socialism, Nazis and Communism is just laughable. They obviously skipped history in school. Same old, scared of the unkown, syndrome. Makes me think of the attitudes of some during the Cold War.

The interesting thing is that those protesting probably include a large number of those who can't afford a private health insurance plan, or through layoffs and downsizing are losing their employer-provided benefit plans. Which makes things even more interesting when you realize that this sort of hysteria is occurring among people who would benefit the most from some sort of nationalized public health plan. I don't think that most people understand how effective the propaganda campaign by the private insurance industry, aided and abetted by the Becks and Limbaughs, has been. They've taken something that was demonstrably and objectively to be in the best interest of almost everyone, including almost all of those protestors, and managed to convince a frightening huge number of American citizens that any such thing is the equivalent of hell on earth breaking out.

It's not a case anyore of just calling these people stupid, of which too many of them certainly are. It's now trying to understand what's going on in the current American psyche and subcultures that these sorts of blatant lies even managed to work on anyone in the first place. GM and Chrysler went under due to the massive cost of providing extended health benefits for employees and retirees. Since 2003, increasing health care costs have been regularly cited as being a major factor in around 2 million personal and business bankruptcies. The facts are undeniable that the current American system is unsustainable. Yet any possibility of change that would eliminate pressures on businesses or provide some sort of equalized coverage for all American citizens is met with a frenzy of rage and hatred.

So once again, why is this happening? What's gone so deeply wrong down there that this sort of behaviour is even occurring at all? And remember, this is all over something as innocuous as changing the way that health care is provided and paid for. What the hell's going to happen in the US and how are they going to behave towards each other when a major crisis eventually happens again, such as Iran and Israel going after each other or another major terrorist attack on US soil? Race riots? Seccession of disssenting Red states? Civil war that brings the first American Republic to it's end? All I can say is that I'm getting more grateful every day to be on the north side of the border and far away from this frenzied all-American insanity that they're needlessly and pointlessly subjecting themselves to.

[DerbyX]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

DerbyX DerbyX:

http://www.osborneink.com/2009/09/teabaggers-lie.html

Apparently that "livecam" shot isn't correct.

So basically Derby your blogger is telling us we shouldn't accept the video as authentic. We should however accept his un-time-stamped pic as authentic. Or am I wrong? Did I miss something. I went to his link. I can't find the time and date. Do you have a time-stamped pic?

I'm not officially doubting you, or your blogger at this point. I just really want to know who the facts actually support here.

http://www.trafficland.com/city/WAS/cam ... index.html

Edit

Oh wait a minute now. Both the video, and your blogger's pic could be correct. The video is supposed to be time lapsed between 8:00 and 11:30 AM. Your blogger's pic is supposed to be for 3:30 PM.

Well I think the facts are that the right wingers have been going nuts trying to prove an absurd participation of some 1-2 million people and thats the real story, well that and the fact that republicans would rather spend hundreds of billions of dollars bombing foreign nations rather then providing healthcare for its own citizens.

[Newfy]

Thanos Thanos:

Newfy Newfy:

I just don't understand how so many Americans can be so scared of a national health care service. Of course the ones protesting can probably afford to pay their medical bills. I know no one likes to pay more tax but sureley a tax which will give free healthcare to all is a small price to pay. The British NHS may not be perfect but it is still very good.

And if they're that worried about getting the level of care they want they can still go private as we here in Britain can still do if you can afford it.

The fact that they're comparing Obamas' ideas to Socialism, Nazis and Communism is just laughable. They obviously skipped history in school. Same old, scared of the unkown, syndrome. Makes me think of the attitudes of some during the Cold War.

The interesting thing is that those protesting probably include a large number of those who can't afford a private health insurance plan, or through layoffs and downsizing are losing their employer-provided benefit plans. Which makes things even more interesting when you realize that this sort of hysteria is occurring among people who would benefit the most from some sort of nationalized public health plan. I don't think that most people understand how effective the propaganda campaign by the private insurance industry, aided and abetted by the Becks and Limbaughs, has been. They've taken something that was demonstrably and objectively to be in the best interest of almost everyone, including almost all of those protestors, and managed to convince a frightening huge number of American citizens that any such thing is the equivalent of hell on earth breaking out.

Good point, it hadn't occured to me that there might be a propoganda campaign by the insurance companies. Obviously living in the UK I don't see alot of what goes on day to day. I know there was a big thing about the British NHS, alot of over the top scare mongerring. From a personal point of view I know i would struggle if it wasn't for the NHS. I'm not sure how it is in Canada or America for military personnel, but in the UK only I get medical and dental care from the army while my wife and kids rely on the NHS. Without the NHS we'd be screwed. My daughter was in hospital several times as a baby having convulsions and my son has Autism so we have had to see many specialists and therapists. I wouldn't even like to think what it would cost if I had to pay for it.

[N_Fiddledog]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Well I think the facts are that the right wingers have been going nuts trying to prove an absurd participation of some 1-2 million people and thats the real story, well that and the fact that republicans would rather spend hundreds of billions of dollars bombing foreign nations rather then providing healthcare for its own citizens.

No. That would be an opinion. A fact might be if you could produce a legitimate, time-stamped photo of that intersection between 8:30 am and 11:30 am. If you cannot do that, the fact appears to be your blogger, for whatever reasons, is not telling the truth.

[DerbyX]

The right wingers can't prove anywhere close to 1-2 million figures can they? If you can't accept the bloggers posting of an undated/timed livecam screen capture then how can you accept it when the other guys do the exact same thing?

[ridenrain]

Maybe you can ask Van Jones how many people were there.
He's got a lot of free time these days..
HAHAHAAH!

[DerbyX]

Off-topic. Don't try and hijack this thread with your partisan crying.

[Newfy]

Here's another article on the story:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20090913/twl-protesters-say-enough-to-obama-healt-3fd0ae9.html

He said: "He is a traitor. He's either a Marxist or a Communist and we're not. He's totally un-American."

I think that says it all!

[Proculation]

Newfy Newfy:

Here's another article on the story:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20090913/twl-protesters-say-enough-to-obama-healt-3fd0ae9.html

He said: "He is a traitor. He's either a Marxist or a Communist and we're not. He's totally un-American."

I think that says it all!

From your link, I think this one is much more appropriate:

"Richard Brigle, a veteran of the Vietnam war, said healthcare in the US needed to be reformed, but not according to Mr Obama's plan.

"My grandkids are going to be paying for this. It's going to cost too much money that we don't have," he said while marching."

[bootlegga]

Frankly, these guys are lucky that Obama didn't herd them into fenced off areas blocks away from the White House (like Dubya used to do to Dem protesters at his speeches while he was in office).

[Newfy]

NHS History: In the beginning

"The National Health Service was founded on July 5, 1948, and revolutionised the delivery of healthcare in this country.

Before 'The Service' began, the provision of medical care was somewhat different as actually hospitals charged people for beds.

Only the poorest workers had free access to a doctor, and even then their wives and children didn't. Other workers also had to pay to see their GP. It often led to people relying on home remedies to cure their ills.

When the NHS became a reality, its main task was to bring hospital services, doctors, pharmacists, dentists and community services under one umbrella.

Pattern


The spiralling cost of drugs forced prescription charging for the first time

The NHS was quickly seen as a godsend. Mothers now wanted their babies born in hospitals, the first hip replacement operations were soon being carried out and new ground-breaking drugs were being used.

But the voracious demand for this new service caused serious financial problems. The service was born in an era when money was in short supply. Food was being rationed and there was a shortage of building materials and fuel.

The spiralling cost of new drugs also helped to contribute to the decision to start charging a small fee for certain services (prescriptions and dental treatment), just three years after the much heralded free service was launched.

But although the NHS was originally beset by problems which may seem familiar in the 21st Century, it eventually settled into a pattern."

[Apollo]

Guy_Fawkes Guy_Fawkes:

Sounds about right, when I talk to Americans who are against public funded healthcare I ask them "So if a woman cant afford to give birth in a hospital should she abort?" that usualy ends the conversation.

Guy, Do you honesty beleive your statment is true? I will anxiously await your reply.

[N_Fiddledog]

DerbyX DerbyX:

The right wingers can't prove anywhere close to 1-2 million figures can they? If you can't accept the bloggers posting of an undated/timed livecam screen capture then how can you accept it when the other guys do the exact same thing?

Here's the problem then. We're not listening to each other. I never claimed a proven 1-2 million figure. I will however claim an on the scene MSNBC reporter estimated hundreds of thousands, and described the rally as "massive". Pictorial evidence appears to support that last claim. Not necessarily just the video: all the other pics of the event which are filtering in.

On the authenticity of the video, if I actually listen to you I have to admit you are correct in saying neither side has proven their claim. The blogger however was, in my opinion proven incorrect by using the wrong time for the gathering. I therefore find his huffing and puffing about "liars", a little humorous.

[Zipperfish]

Wow, lots of pictures. Anyone see a black guy in any of them? Take a look.

[Zipperfish]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

DerbyX DerbyX:

The right wingers can't prove anywhere close to 1-2 million figures can they? If you can't accept the bloggers posting of an undated/timed livecam screen capture then how can you accept it when the other guys do the exact same thing?

Here's the problem then. We're not listening to each other.

Nailed it.