[EyeBrock]

I know what you are saying Scape, and I respect you’re point of view. I just think tossing Colours in the bin, Colours with a proud history, is the wrong way to go. I can’t imagine the Brits disbanding the Parachute Regiment in the same instances.
Even after the Bloody Sunday massacre/scandal the establishment and government stood with the Para's. This is a regiment that didn’t play nice in Belfast.

There was a failing in leadership in the CF. These bad apples in the Airborne should have been dealt with.
Disbandment was pure politics and just stuck the knife into the back of the core structure and spirit of the Canadian Army.

[Ash1980]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

The Americans have produced a suitable mine resistant vehicle that should be used instead of the lightly armoured LAV3 and Humvee.. It's called the Cougar. I saw it on an epsisode of Future Weapons on Discovery, as well.


http://defense-update.com/products/c/cougar.htm
http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/ ... s2723.aspx

If the Canadian military or the Federal Conservatives even looked at this machine every party would be screaming about not buying Canadian or for buying from the states.

[bootlegga]

Scape Scape:

EB, the CAR was given a chance at redemption and they still slid back into the abyss and it wasn't just the CAR that was having issues at that time. Remember the super solider program and the integration of females into combat roles were going on around the same time? Frankly the whole thing became a pissing contest and this was the straw that broke the back. Yes, the CAR was elite and as such held in high regard by the rest of us but, full stop, who did they pledge allegiance to the country or their colours? At some point the tail does not get to wage the dog here and that and the whole hazing underground culture had to be made an example of. It's a shame the CAR was the scape goat here but someone was going to get nailed. Rather the CAR then the whole CAF.

What he said!

[EyeBrock]

It's still a cop out. The CF leadership failed with the Airborne. People need to be held accountable. Disbanding an honourable regiment because officers and NCO's lost control is not the way to go. Deal with the problem and the regiment will move on.

This is a stain on the relationship between the Liberals and most CF warriors that I have worked with.
It was a mistake, and until you Libs admit to that you will always be viewed with suspicion on matters of national defence.

[Scape]

The CAR future was already in doubt long before this happened. It was not producing bang for buck as compared to the mainstay regiments. For the amount of equipment, training and personnel required to keep the CAR in fighting form they could have an entire regiment in its stead. So even without the history of discipline problems the CAR was already on thin ice. This just made that transition faster if not more dramatic and perhaps even more politically feasible but the fact was they were destined to be decommissioned just like the US decommissioned the South Dakota, a ship that did it's job with honor but was too expensive to keep afloat.

The real scar was the dishonor the Pte. Brown had to endure because of politically folly. He spoke out and because Matchee could not be held to account for his action Brown ended up doing the hatless dance. As this was all happening during election season the stench could not be avoided so the CAR was put down before their moral infected the entire CAF. Point in fact at that point the CAR HAD to be put down. The best possible outcome of all of this was when they were then attached to the major regiments. However, the days of a regiment of Jump ready troops is long past. It's a white elephant that just wont fly. Might as well bring back the Bonnie while your at it.

[EyeBrock]

An updated version of HMCS Bonaventure would be a good thing right now.

[bootlegga]

Carriers as they are these days are obsolete, IMHO. A far better option would be a series of destroyers with flight decks capable of launching armed UAVs, or a USN-style Arsenal ship with a flight deck for UAVs. Far more affordable and probably more within our capabilities than a 30,000 carrier.

[EyeBrock]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Carriers as they are these days are obsolete, IMHO. A far better option would be a series of destroyers with flight decks capable of launching armed UAVs, or a USN-style Arsenal ship with a flight deck for UAVs. Far more affordable and probably more within our capabilities than a 30,000 carrier.

Not a bad idea at all.

[PENATRATOR]

Scape Scape:

The CAR future was already in doubt long before this happened. It was not producing bang for buck as compared to the mainstay regiments. For the amount of equipment, training and personnel required to keep the CAR in fighting form they could have an entire regiment in its stead. So even without the history of discipline problems the CAR was already on thin ice. This just made that transition faster if not more dramatic and perhaps even more politically feasible but the fact was they were destined to be decommissioned just like the US decommissioned the South Dakota, a ship that did it's job with honor but was too expensive to keep afloat.

So by disbanding a Regiment full of "bad apples" (boots insinuaton) the problem was solved. Anybody realize that when the troops moved on they scattered back to their parent regiments, thus scattering the "problem throughout the CF Infantry Corps? Great planning

[Gunnair]

PENATRATOR PENATRATOR:

Scape Scape:

The CAR future was already in doubt long before this happened. It was not producing bang for buck as compared to the mainstay regiments. For the amount of equipment, training and personnel required to keep the CAR in fighting form they could have an entire regiment in its stead. So even without the history of discipline problems the CAR was already on thin ice. This just made that transition faster if not more dramatic and perhaps even more politically feasible but the fact was they were destined to be decommissioned just like the US decommissioned the South Dakota, a ship that did it's job with honor but was too expensive to keep afloat.

So by disbanding a Regiment full of "bad apples" (boots insinuaton) the problem was solved. Anybody realize that when the troops moved on they scattered back to their parent regiments, thus scattering the "problem throughout the CF Infantry Corps? Great planning

The other alternative could have been to fire them all. A highly unlikely scenario at best.

[romanP]

There must be some way to detect mines and IEDs before they kill someone. It's got to be simpler than building heavier vehicles. I was thinking last night, why aren't there minesweepers anymore? But I realise just now that non-improvised mines probably have a plastic casing these days, exactly in order to prevent detection. But they are full of metal ball bearings, aren't they? Wouldn't an IED have at least a little bit of metal in it, especially if it was detonated by cell phone?

[PENATRATOR]

British newspaper salutes Canada . . . this is a good read. It is funny how it took someone in England to put it into words... Sunday Telegraph Article From today's UK wires:

Salute to a brave and modest nation - Kevin Myers, 'The Sunday Telegraph' LONDON :

Until the deaths of Canadian soldiers killed in Afghanistan , probably almost no one outside their home country had been aware that Canadian troops are deployed in the region.

And as always, Canada will bury its dead, just as the rest of the world, as always will forget its sacrifice, just as it always forgets nearly everything Canada ever does.. It seems that Canada 's historic mission is to come to the selfless aid both of its friends and of complete strangers, and then, once the crisis is over, to be well and truly ignored.

Canada is the perpetual wallflower that stands on the edge of the hall, waiting for someone to come and ask her for a dance. A fire breaks out, she risks life and limb to rescue her fellow dance-goers, and suffers serious injuries. But when the hall is repaired and the dancing resumes, there is Canada, the wallflower still, while those she once helped Glamorously cavort across the floor, blithely neglecting her yet again.

That is the price Canada pays for sharing the North American continent with the United States , and for being a selfless friend of Britain in two global conflicts.

For much of the 20th century, Canada was torn in two different directions: It seemed to be a part of the old world, yet had an address in the new one, and that divided identity ensured that it never fully got the gratitude it deserved.

Yet it's purely voluntary contribution to the cause of freedom in two world wars was perhaps the greatest of any democracy. Almost 10% of Canada 's entire population of seven million people served in the armed forces during the First World War, and nearly 60,000 died. The great Allied victories of 1918 were spearheaded by Canadian troops, perhaps the most capable soldiers in the entire British order of battle.

Canada was repaid for its enormous sacrifice by downright neglect, it's unique contribution to victory being absorbed into the popular Memory as somehow or other the work of the 'British.'

The Second World War provided a re-run. The Canadian navy began the war with a half dozen vessels, and ended up policing nearly half of the Atlantic against U-boat attack. More than 120 Canadian warships participated in the Normandy landings, during which 15,000 Canadian soldiers went ashore on D-Day alone.

Canada finished the war with the third-largest navy and the fourth largest air force in the world. The world thanked Canada with the same sublime indifference as it had the previous time.

Canadian participation in the war was acknowledged in film only if it was necessary to give an American actor a part in a campaign in which the United States had clearly not participated - a touching scrupulousness which, of course, Hollywood has since abandoned, as it has any notion of a separate Canadian identity.

So it is a general rule that actors and filmmakers arriving in Hollywood keep their nationality - unless, that is, they are Canadian. Thus Mary Pickford, Walter Huston, Donald Sutherland, Michael J. Fox, William Shatner, Norman Jewison, David Cronenberg, Alex Trebek, Art Linkletter and Dan Aykroyd have in the popular perception become American, and Christopher Plummer, British.

It is as if, in the very act of becoming famous, a Canadian ceases to be Canadian, unless she is Margaret Atwood, who is as unshakably Canadian as a moose, or Celine Dion, for whom Canada has proved quite unable to find any takers.

Moreover, Canada is every bit as querulously alert to the achievements of its sons and daughters as the rest of the world is completely unaware of them. The Canadians proudly say of themselves - and are unheard by anyone else - that 1% of the world's population has provided 10% of the world's peacekeeping forces.

Canadian soldiers in the past half century have been the greatest peacekeepers on Earth - in 39 missions on UN mandates, and six on non-UN peacekeeping duties, from Vietnam to East Timor, from Sinai to Bosnia.

Yet the only foreign engagement that has entered the popular non-Canadian imagination was the sorry affair in Somalia , in which out-of-control paratroopers murdered two Somali infiltrators. Their regiment was then disbanded in disgrace - a uniquely Canadian act of self-abasement for which, naturally, the Canadians received no international credit.
So who today in the United States knows about the stoic and selfless friendship its northern neighbour has given it in Afghanistan ?

Rather like Cyrano de Bergerac , Canada repeatedly does honourable things for honourable motives, but instead of being thanked for it, it remains something of a figure of fun. It is the Canadian way, for which Canadians should be proud, yet such honour comes at a high cost. This past year more grieving Canadian families knew that cost all too tragically well.

Lest we forget.

[Gunnair]

romanP romanP:

There must be some way to detect mines and IEDs before they kill someone. It's got to be simpler than building heavier vehicles. I was thinking last night, why aren't there minesweepers anymore? But I realise just now that non-improvised mines probably have a plastic casing these days, exactly in order to prevent detection. But they are full of metal ball bearings, aren't they? Wouldn't an IED have at least a little bit of metal in it, especially if it was detonated by cell phone?

How close do you think you'd have to be to detect a half dozen 76mm shells wired together with det cord? Close enough for it to kill you if the guy with the cell phone detonated it?

Keep in mind, and some of the Afghan vets will correct me if I'm wrong, but troops find and defuse a hell of a lot of these things. The one's that blow and take out our guys are the exception.

[romanP]

Gunnair Gunnair:

romanP romanP:

There must be some way to detect mines and IEDs before they kill someone. It's got to be simpler than building heavier vehicles. I was thinking last night, why aren't there minesweepers anymore? But I realise just now that non-improvised mines probably have a plastic casing these days, exactly in order to prevent detection. But they are full of metal ball bearings, aren't they? Wouldn't an IED have at least a little bit of metal in it, especially if it was detonated by cell phone?

How close do you think you'd have to be to detect a half dozen 76mm shells wired together with det cord? Close enough for it to kill you if the guy with the cell phone detonated it?

I thought of that too. But we're smarter than that. We can build drones and land-roving robots that can do the job without the loss of human life. It shouldn't be hard to find a bunch of big bullets buried under the sand.

[Gunnair]

romanP romanP:

Gunnair Gunnair:

romanP romanP:

There must be some way to detect mines and IEDs before they kill someone. It's got to be simpler than building heavier vehicles. I was thinking last night, why aren't there minesweepers anymore? But I realise just now that non-improvised mines probably have a plastic casing these days, exactly in order to prevent detection. But they are full of metal ball bearings, aren't they? Wouldn't an IED have at least a little bit of metal in it, especially if it was detonated by cell phone?

How close do you think you'd have to be to detect a half dozen 76mm shells wired together with det cord? Close enough for it to kill you if the guy with the cell phone detonated it?

I thought of that too. But we're smarter than that. We can build drones and land-roving robots that can do the job without the loss of human life. It shouldn't be hard to find a bunch of big bullets buried under the sand.

I suspect it's a bit more complicated than you think. I don't know much about mine sweeping by land, but I do know a bit about the navy side of it - which is what my ship does, and I can assure you it ain't easy to find these things.