westmanguy westmanguy:
You can be socially liberal and oppose abortion rights. I don't see abortion as an issue of woman deciding what they can or can't do with their own body. To me, its an issue of life, and the protection of life supersedes any 'right to control my body' mantra. We can disagree on whether its life that's deserving to equal protection to you and me. But -- can't you at least understand how if a person like me sees it from the life end of things, it no longer can be viewed as a 'live and let live' social issue? On almost every other count I'm socially liberal, so I highly doubt abortion, and my reasons against it, void me from labeling myself socially liberal.
No, actually you can't. Freedom of individual choice is a hallmark libertarian and social liberal belief. Holding the opinion that the law should be used to force women to adopt your belief system goes against the very spirit of liberalism. There is no debate on this. Women deserve the right and freedom to decide what to do with their body and cannot be forced to carry a baby to term under any threat of legal action. You haven't as yet posted your opinion about drugs or prostitution and their legality so I don't know if you meet the criteria there either.
You may want to say you are a social liberal but that doesn't make it true.
westmanguy westmanguy:
This is where we part ways. You're deluded here. No offense - but you are. I think you're a little more smart than to buy into the Stephen Harper, hidden agenda card. I read a lot, and have read many books on Stephen Harper, his ideology, where he wants to take conservatism, and there is no way (hell or high water), he would go on that type of socially conservative rampage in a majority government.
Harper has evolved quite a lot in his views since his Reform days in the early 90s. I believe he is a socially moderate individual. I do know his record on gay marriage, but I also know that's a battle he never saw worth fighting (why else did he guarantee its defeat in the last free vote he called on it?). He knows these issues are minuscule in the whole scheme of things and that they are divisive and ensure Conservative electoral disaster.
Do you think Harper is a stupid man? Lets just say he is anti-gay or anti-abortion (which he isn't), I think we can agree he is an intelligent individual. He knows Canada is a socially liberal nation, and will never ever embrace social conservatism. He knows, even within a majority government, if he pulled any of those stunts you outline, he'd have his ass handed to him in the next election and alienate a generation from the Conservative Party.
So, please, give your head a shake, then shake it again.
Right back at you. The CPC isn't socially liberal and they more then anybody else have a core group of people who are against SSM, abortion, and any number of social causes. You are deluded if you think a majority led CPC government wouldn't install the very ideology I state they will. Witness your own support of any bill designed to make abortion illegal. Harper has made the requisite comments about not trying to do so (he made the same about floor-crossers, income trusts, etc) YET you yourself would fully support him backtracking against his promise if it meant having abortion rights outlawed. Wanna bet there are lots of other supporting cons who would applaud the striking down of SSM laws?
This hidden agenda thing has been a con smoke screen. First off everybody has an agenda. An agenda is a plan of action. Second, its certainly not hidden. Its right out in the open. Third, Harpers own old campaign manager, Tom Flanagan wrote a book detailing exactly how Canada needs a conservative government but that it needs to be tricked into it because deep down we don't know what we really need.
The bottom line is that I will not vote for nor support the Harper conservatives because I don't believe them. You know what? I'm in the majority because despite the Liberals troubles and the left wing vote split between not 2 but 3 parties Harper has failed to win a majority 3 times and he is now far behind the Liberals.
westmanguy westmanguy:
Wrong. I do pay taxes. Ever heard of the PST and GST? I'm a year away from officially being 18 and having to pay all that stuff, and I still have a right to discuss taxes even if I don't directly pay that much, it still greatly affects me and my family.
Give it up. I said that too when I was 17 but the truth is I wasn't paying anywhere near what adults did. When you pay all of those taxes then sit down at the end of the year and find out you still owe the government a big fat check then we'll talk.
westmanguy westmanguy:
Canadians see over bloated government with over-paid union workers, with government executives renting lavish hotels (i.e. the CBC), as not working for the people. They don't see the government as needing to be involved in so many aspects of our lives, and ditching those inefficient services in turn for lower taxes is a good thing.
Then explain why Harper is the one who is supporting that very thing? The conservatives like to scream about lower taxes but they also lead the call for expansion of the most expensive government services, namely the military and legal system. They want services they just don't want to pay for it. I suggest you examine any budget and see where the money goes. The Libs, NDP, and CPC all have different ideologies about where the spending should go and who should pay the taxes but more then anybody the right wing wants tax cuts because they believe the bulk of it goes to social agendas they don't support when thats simply not the case.
westmanguy westmanguy:
The Reform Party was not racist. Misguided, but not racist.
I agree that most tenants of SOCIAL conservatism are ignorant and wrong. However, again, do you not understand the whole picture?
IN OTHER WORDS I am quite correct when I label the conservative ideology wrong. You said it yourself, you just put the qualifier "SOCIAL" before it. The problem is that in Canada our parties jump all across the board fiscally but socially they stay much more in line with traditional left/right ideology. The NDP are the most left wing and they hold the most socially left wing views of the parties. The Libs are left of centre and hold that belief structure and the CPC is under Harper a right wing party. Socially they espouse that belief.
BTW, the reformers were a racist party. They were not misguided they were just plain incompetent. In fact Harper went out of his way to identify and eliminate those very elements in the party. The CPC might not be the same party as the Reform but thats not the issue.
westmanguy westmanguy:
In Canada, social conservatism is oh so minuscule on the entire scale of conservative ideology. Social issues rarely register amongst Conservative circles in Canada anymore. Some like to still debate it, but most realize abortion and gay rights are lost battles and its time to move on.
No. They just aren't as right-wing as their US counterparts. Our entire country is left of the US. Compare our conservatives to Australias or the UKs and see where they fall. They are much more in line with them ideologically.
westmanguy westmanguy:
Conservatism is flawed in the social aspect, but that is such a small part. You do realize the tenants of fiscal conservatism, small government, low taxes, strong military, and other things that dominate conservatism?
Except that it doesn't. Harper stated that himself but under him spending rose and the government got larger.
BTW, if you want to state exactly what you mean by small government then feel free to
post it here. People say they want a smaller government but often cannot state what that means and having a strong military means paying taxes or running deficits.
westmanguy westmanguy:
How can you call conservatism 'wrong' based on a small part of the ideology and ignore the other 3/4s of it?
If we were talking U.S. politics and the Republicans this would be a different discussion, believe you me.
I believe I just corrected you. I'm not ignoring it as I believe its more apart of it then you say.
westmanguy westmanguy:
Again do you not respect increased defense spending, reducing debt, the size of government, lowering taxes? Even if you don't exactly agree with it?
THEY do not hold that belief. They may say they do but the evidence is right in front of you. All Harper has done is lower the GST and all that has done has helped eliminate the surplus. The Liberals reduced the debt. The Liberals increased defence spending. The Liberals lowered taxes. I can therefore have all the things you posted about
and have my socially liberal cake and eat it.
Just because you say that the conservatives are about those things doesn't mean the party will do them.
westmanguy westmanguy:
I agree with the Liberal vision of a tolerant society that prides itself in diversity and treating everyone equally. I respect many tenants of the ideology. You respect no tenants of the Conservative vision? Really? If you can't find anything in the Conservative ideology you respect that correlates to being a partisan hack.
Like I said. You are too new to recall a time when I posted exactly what aspects of the CPC platform I felt were good and why they should partner with the Libs despite my belief that socially the NDP were a better fit. It was obvious I did like some of their platform and for my trouble I was called a corrupt Liberal supporting partisan hack because I would not simply turn my back on the Libs and vote CPC.
westmanguy westmanguy:
Not to be egotistical here, but I'm pretty damn educated in politics, government, and how everything works, for being 16 years old. I know--such an oxymoron. I'm coherent, educated, young, and gay and identify with conservatism. I go against everything that is normal!
Yes, I haven't extensively studied communism, socialism, capitalism, and all the other economic systems. However, I have a damn good understanding in each of them. I'm very well aware of the fundamentals of each.
So did I at your age. We studied that in school as did almost everybody here yet the number of people who routinely mis-label people and parties with communism and socialism is dismally high. The Libs have been labeled with every -ism across the board ranging from out right socialist communist to being a corrupt capitalist party that will cow tow to every whim of big business.
You think that the traditional conservative beliefs will be espoused by your party but the truth is you have no evidence they will. The Liberals under Chretien and Martin adopted a great many of those "fiscal conservative" values and were called a tax and spend party throughout their entire tenure.
CKA Uber 
CKA Elite 
