[Canadian_Mind]

saturn_656 saturn_656:

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

I've seen no proof of that, so far all the parties are equally to blame.

Harper is worlds above Chretien. Martin wasn't in power long enough to have any effect one way or the other.

You want to argue that Trudeau was better?

If Iggy made promises for enlarging the CF, he'd get my vote next election.

Chretien attempted to murder the military, and may yet succeed, but one man doesn't represent the whole party a decade later.

If you want to go back as far as Treadeau, Diefenbaker killed off our best chance and being a world leader in aircraft development. We had an aircraft that, while expensive at the time, would soon be looked upon as cheap compared to inferior American aircraft that came into develoment and service just 5 years later.

Atleast Treadeau recognisd the need for a military during the FLQ crisis.

[ridenrain]

Who's been better to the forces is something that is very subjective so I always like to defer to the opinions of the members of the force. For the most part, they come off dead against the Liberals every time.

[ziggy]

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

Need more than a couple nuke subs and a base.

Need multiple airbases and navl bases/stopover points along our largest coastline for the slushbreakers.

Need multiple arctic-capable submarines.

Need multiple surface heavy icebreakers, both to help counter sub threat, but also to provide a visable surface precence and deterrent.

Need more patrol aircraft and tactical interceptor aircraft permanently stationed in the north.

Need multiple underwater listening devices and hundreds if not thousands of undersea mines that will detonate if subs are near if we don't manually tell them to turn off. We can't turn the mines off if we don't know the subs are there.

I didn't think about the road connection Ziggy, but if you think it is feasable to have one go along the coastline...

The all weather road would be key.The Canadian govt. hasnt been able to curtail a fuel and food shortage up there for many year's let alone start a few military camps.

[Canadian_Mind]

ridenrain ridenrain:

Who's been better to the forces is something that is very subjective so I always like to defer to the opinions of the members of the force. For the most part, they come off dead against the Liberals every time.

And I don't understand why. When I first started I quickly came of the opinion that Conservatives were better... Not because they were doing any better than the Grits, but because it was their percieved representation, and the popular opinion to have. There was some instructors trying to influence our opinions during basic that I don't agree with, but it was only one class and someone complained about it.

Regardless, it hasn't taken long for me to see that the conservatives are failing much as the liberals did. No budget for kit and quarters, what kit they have bought is shoddy or super expensive, no good incentives to bring back old members and recruit new ones, etc.

I'm not saying I'm putting anyone ahead fo the conservatives, but I put my faith in them and so far they have utterly failed. I look forward to seeing igy's plan for the military before I choose which party I am to support next election.

ziggy ziggy:

The all weather road would be key.The Canadian govt. hasnt been able to curtail a fuel and food shortage up there for many year's let alone start a few military camps.

You youruself said that roadways wouldn't work north of Churchill, so how do you propose we engineer such a thing?

[ziggy]

Winter road from Churchill,along the coast,right up to Baffin island and drill the shit out of it all along the way.

[ziggy]

We could allways ask the french from Quebec,they pretty well own the north and the arctic.

[Canadian_Mind]

ziggy ziggy:

We could allways ask the french from Quebec,they pretty well own the north and the arctic.

?

And what good is a road that doesn't run int he summer too?

Can't build a highway on pilings so as to avoid frost heave?

[ziggy]

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

ziggy ziggy:

We could allways ask the french from Quebec,they pretty well own the north and the arctic.

?

And what good is a road that doesn't run int he summer too?

Can't build a highway on pilings so as to avoid frost heave?

A winter road and build the all weather as you go as it take's a long time,no such thing as frost heave when dealing with permafrost bud.

I helped build Nunavut's longest road so I know what I'm talking about.
A year to do 100 klik's.
Nothing move's fast in the Arctic.

[Canadian_Mind]

ziggy ziggy:

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

ziggy ziggy:

We could allways ask the french from Quebec,they pretty well own the north and the arctic.

?

And what good is a road that doesn't run int he summer too?

Can't build a highway on pilings so as to avoid frost heave?

A winter road and build the all weather as you go as it take's a long time,no such thing as frost heave when dealing with permafrost bud.

I helped build Nunavut's longest road so I know what I'm talking about.
A year to do 100 klik's.
Nothing move's fast in the Arctic.

Frost doesn't melt in the upper few feet during the summertime? I thought it was that melting and refreezing that caused frost heave in the arctic areas.

And Dayum. How much did that cost you guys, and how many people did it take to make that 100 per year?

[ziggy]

This is me flying over Nunavut's longest road in a chopper,building it was a challenge,I was glad to be a part of it.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm6_lmeArGM

[ziggy]

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

ziggy ziggy:

ziggy ziggy:

We could allways ask the french from Quebec,they pretty well own the north and the arctic.

quote]

In late september,the end of summer I could pull back the tundra anywhere(moss) and the ground underneath was froze cock stiff bud.
That's permafrost,it doesnt melt.

[bootlegga]

ridenrain ridenrain:

Who's been better to the forces is something that is very subjective so I always like to defer to the opinions of the members of the force. For the most part, they come off dead against the Liberals every time.

Have you read the book? I have and it blames far more than just the Liberals. He blames every PM after St. Laurent. Here's Granatstein's own summary, which ends with;

$1:

But it is the Canadian people who really killed their military. We elected our national leaders; we the people are responsible. We believe that defence spending is unnecessary. Canadians killed their military.

http://www.cda-cdai.ca/CDA_GMs/AGM67/granatstein.htm

Which is what I've been saying pretty much since the day I got here. The people to blame are the ones who elected the governments that neglected our armed forces.

[ziggy]

[quote="Canadian_Mind]
And what good is a road that doesn't run int he summer too?

Can't build a highway on pilings so as to avoid frost heave?[/quote]

A winter road and build the all weather as you go as it take's a long time,no such thing as frost heave when dealing with permafrost bud.

I helped build Nunavut's longest road so I know what I'm talking about.
A year to do 100 klik's.
Nothing move's fast in the Arctic. [/quote]

Frost doesn't melt in the upper few feet during the summertime? I thought it was that melting and refreezing that caused frost heave in the arctic areas.

And Dayum. How much did that cost you guys, and how many people did it take to make that 100 per year?[/quote]

There was 3 camps with about 150 men in each,a rock quarry every ten miles,survival shacks every 5 miles,and it was supposed to be finished in September but wasnt untill the next year so it was very expensive.Because we were counting on it being done we allmost ran out of fuel and had local innuit on snowmobiles bringing in two 45 gallon drum's at a time to fill million gallon tanks .

There was a whole barge full of brand new equipment that never made it to camp that winter because the road wasnt done,lots of it got trashed in town and a few new machines burnt to the ground.
You can build a road allmost anywhere but as it's so expensive to maintain thats why most supplies are hauled in on an ice road in winter.
I could spend a week cleaning ten miles of road after a storm and if the wind came up that weeks worth of work was gone within minutes and you had to start all over again.

The top layer of frost sometimes melts,depends on what kind of grass is on it,once covered in rock it never melts.
There are geological features though that are due to freeze thaw but its complicated to explain.

[bootlegga]

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

Need more than a couple nuke subs and a base.

Need multiple airbases and navl bases/stopover points along our largest coastline for the slushbreakers.

Need multiple arctic-capable submarines.

Need multiple surface heavy icebreakers, both to help counter sub threat, but also to provide a visable surface precence and deterrent.

Need more patrol aircraft and tactical interceptor aircraft permanently stationed in the north.

Need multiple underwater listening devices and hundreds if not thousands of undersea mines that will detonate if subs are near if we don't manually tell them to turn off. We can't turn the mines off if we don't know the subs are there.

I didn't think about the road connection Ziggy, but if you think it is feasable to have one go along the coastline...

Sounds good to me, except for the mines. The last thing we need is a Kursk in the Arctic, slowly leaking radioactive shit into the water. Sensors, coupled with nuke subs would work better anyways.

[ridenrain]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Have you read the book? I have and it blames far more than just the Liberals.

I've indeed read the book and, like all opinions, there is some I accept and some I reject.
While we all play lip service to the saying "we get the government we deserve", we need to remember that the left has traditionally under-represented the forces as the vital members of society that they are.
After Korea, we retreated to "peasekeeping" because that was a way that we could show the flag, pretend were doing something but not actually have to spend money on the forces. We never saw the forces on the CBC and troops almost never made it into the media, and teh only time they did was when they were used as "constables in green" or when the did something really stupid.

Now that Chretien's Afghan peasekeeping adventure turned into a shooting war, we find that we're not equiped. What a suprise.

Mulroney deserves blame too but most of that time was taken up by Liberal majorities and the cuts were painfull and deep.