[Bacardi4206]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:

Brenda Brenda:

That is exactly what I read. I guess we were the only ones, Derb.

The legal age is now 18. Of course there will be arranged marriages. Change is hard to take. Hell, just look at what happens here, when someone says: hey guys, you could do it this way too. It takes time, sometimes generations. GIVE THEM THAT FREAKIN TIME. Those girls are starting a new generation of hope. They are changing their worlds, lifes, laws.

If you don't see that progress, you better up your meds...

Okay, you got a point that is progress but I still don't see the point seeing how there were already laws against this and still over 50% of the younger age girls are being married off to older guys. If they raised the legal age to 18, than took a more agressive approach on cracking down on these marriages. Maybe than that would be complete progress, but still atm little girls are being married off at the same record rate and next month will be the same story.

You just assume a record rate and assume the women are being "married off". The article states the 50% rate is for women being married at a young but appropriate age and one that our culture viewed as the norm too. Just because our first time marriage age has risen doesn't mean their needs to. As for "older guys", that too was the norm in our culture. Arranged marriages aren't all conducted against a young womens will. My Iranian co-worker went home and entered into what is technically an arranged marriage but he assures me it was not as if the women was sold to him do to speak. Their parents arranged what they thought would be a suitable match (not unlike getting fixed up or through a dating service). They then met and courted for a time before they both agreed to be married.

Thats the norm. In rural regions and more isolated ones is where old traditions are still clung to but as we have pointed out that is where it is indeed changing.

You guys just expect their govt to in effect enforce your morality on people who have existed this way for centuries and when they do make progress you make grandiose claims that its not enough and troops should be sent in to force them to adapt. The truth is that the vast majority of young girls are not married off when they are children even if they still enter into "arranged marriages".

Thats their culture and theirs to change not you.

Assume? The stats were right there in the article. As for the subject of being married of unwillingly. Did I say all of them were doing that? However that is the story in the article where the girl is married off unwillingly, and the most common case for these is the same thing. The girl/woman get's married to a guy who never even see's his face unti'll the wedding day.

I also don't recall me saying I wanted to change their culture?

[DerbyX]

commanderkai commanderkai:

Mmm...more childish insults. I've been trying to keep respectful to you, but you keep pushing my limits, so from now on, I'm basically going to ignore you because you're nothing more than a little Internet tough guy who derives meaning from insulting people who have different opinions of his own, without actually saying anything even moderately insightful. So as much as you think I'm hurt by what you said, I really don't care about what some tough guy can spew off online.

No you didn't. You started in with all that blah blah blah crap. That was insulting and got the response it deserved.

commanderkai commanderkai:

Grow up, and make sure you stop tossing rocks from your glass house, sooner or later, somebody will take upon your offer and toss it back.

Says the intellectual coward expecting other people to bring violence to enforce his own morality on the world.

commanderkai commanderkai:

The State officials intervene because the girl was fucking there in the court room. How could they not intervene? I know this might come to a surprise to you Derby, but countries like enforcing their laws, even if they are wrong (Iran hanging gays, for example, but of course we cannot call nations out on that since that would require changing cultural traditions. Right)

The judge was clearly horrified that it had happened indicating that he believed such things were not done anymore. As for enforcing the law I suggest you look up islamic law concerning marriages. Granting a divorce without the husbands express permission is against that just as it is in orthodox judaism. Even in our own culture women might need to go the extra mile should a husband simply not proceed with the divorce.

commanderkai commanderkai:

Yes it took us centuries, but I have this belief that other cultures can learn from the mistakes of ours. See, unlike you Derby, I believe these cultures can actually learn through experience just as much as jumping in head first.

They do, do they? They can learn from our example or else eh? Guess what sherlock. They are perfectly entitled to go it at their own pace. Children learn from doing more then by example which is entirely why every generation makes the same mistakes growing up.

commanderkai commanderkai:

So far, there are only two signs here, that individuals can have courage, and that state officials will enforce laws that were written. The individuals having courage is no sign of progress, since courage has been a part of human nature for a long time, be it on some ancient battlefield, helping runaway slaves, or hiding Jews from the Nazis, or a little girl running away from her rapist and "husband".

You obviously understand less then I thought. The judge did not enforce the law by granting the divorce but rather broke it. See the point about islamic law and divorces concerning the husbands.

commanderkai commanderkai:

Now, the state officials enforcing laws is not progress either, considering that state officials will enforce laws, good or bad. If the law stated that these types of marriages were legal, they would of sent her on their way, so on and so forth.

Who the hell are you to say what laws should and should not be enforced by them?

commanderkai commanderkai:

His reaction would be one of any father or mother who cared for his children. So unless you believed all Muslim fathers were child abusers, I do not see this as progress.

No it wouldn't since the daughters are obviously being married off by their parents. His reaction was one of a progressive thinking person with ideas that would not have existed just a few generations ago.

commanderkai commanderkai:

You know, if I really cared, I'd defend myself, but at the same time, I'm just going to ignore your rant about how evil and cowardly I am, coming from the person who has a hard time committing to a civilized debate, especially when he's losing.

Think again sunshine. You exhibit only the western bigotry the epitomizes our continued difficulty with cultures that practice things we did away with.

commanderkai commanderkai:

If you really wanted to have a debate, you'd cut the insults, but so far Derby, you're worse than most of the trolls on this site, even Streaker, who among his very irritating views, he keeps his comments to individual posters with respect, even if he makes broad generalizations about soldiers or whoever else.

Yet others find me infinitely more tolerable then Streaker and say the reverse. Of course I'll just point out that your lack of knowledge on any subject makes you the reason for your own piss-poor arguments which get easily defeated. I might also add the people talk about you that way so don't think you don't have your share of detractors.

commanderkai commanderkai:

Cut the insults, and I'll take you seriously, so far, this discussion has been between Brenda and me, with you hurling rocks, mud, and dung. I tried being patient with you, but so far, you have shown absolutely no respect, to me, or to any poster who differs opinion with you, and your long history of comments backs me up on this.

So Derby, look in the mirror before tossing out insults, because you're really just talking about yourself.

Thus far you jumped into the thread posting at me. You lack any true desire to debate because you seek only to malign their culture and you never ever fail to support violent responses.

You have in the past shown no respect to me which is entirely why I show you none although you are making every attempt to play the innocent little poster routine.

I suggest you peer right back into that window and start asking yourself who the hell you think you are to demand their culture adapt to your morality at a time frame you desire.

[DerbyX]

Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:

Assume? The stats were right there in the article. As for the subject of being married of unwillingly. Did I say all of them were doing that? However that is the story in the article where the girl is married off unwillingly, and the most common case for these is the same thing. The girl/woman get's married to a guy who never even see's his face unti'll the wedding day.

I also don't recall me saying I wanted to change their culture?

The stats say 52% before the age of 18. I'm willing to bet the vast majority of them are 16 and 17, ages that women are usually married at throughout time. Thats been the standard in almost every culture including ours.

In addition, no I don't believe they are all (or even most) being married off to men they have never met. The truth is that in cultures where socializing between unmarried men and women is restricted at best this kind of system is how they meet. Like I said, my own co-worker got married this way and he's modern.

The problem is that we keep trying to judge these cultures by our morality and beliefs and that just isn't right.

[commanderkai]

DerbyX DerbyX:

No you didn't. You started in with all that blah blah blah crap. That was insulting and got the response it deserved.

Which you started by putting words into my mouth. Again, Grow up.

$1:

Says the intellectual coward expecting other people to bring violence to enforce his own morality on the world.

EXACTLY. Right here! Putting words into my own mouth. I never mentioned the use of violence once, but you keep bringing it up.

$1:

The judge was clearly horrified that it had happened indicating that he believed such things were not done anymore. As for enforcing the law I suggest you look up islamic law concerning marriages. Granting a divorce without the husbands express permission is against that just as it is in orthodox judaism. Even in our own culture women might need to go the extra mile should a husband simply not proceed with the divorce.

The judge was clearly horrified. That's all the article states, we don't know why he was, and putting your opinion why he was horrified does not make it true. Maybe he was horrified that a father can marry off his eight year old daughter to somebody 3 times her age. Or maybe he was horrified at what happened to her.

In the end, he was horrified, and granted a divorce to an illegal marriage, that's all.

$1:

They do they? They can learn from our example or else eh? Guess what sherlock. They are perfectly entitled to go it at their own pace. Children learn from doing more then by example which is entirely why every generation makes the same mistakes growing up.

So if somebody was committing rape against an eight year old girl next door, they're "entitled" to do such a thing? Or hanging of gays just for being gay? Why not gassing Jews in concentration camps?

Where does this entitlement come from? Because they're a sovereign nation, thus that makes them allowed to do anything?

$1:

You obviously understand less then I thought. The judge did not enforce the law by granting the divorce but rather broke it. See the point about islamic law and divorces concerning the husbands.

Hmm, what about the whole fact the marriage was illegal in the first place? You can't exactly enforce Islamic marriage law when the marriage was illegal.

$1:

No it wouldn't since the daughters are obviously being married off by their parents. His reaction was one of a progressive thinking person with ideas that would not have existed just a few generations ago.

Oh so there's some sort of Muslim thought control now that there's no way Muslims a generation or two ago could be progressive? Is that it? Wow Derby, how do you know there were no Muslims with these progressive thoughts?

$1:

Thus far you jumped into the thread posting at me. You lack any true desire to debate because you seek only to malign their culture and you never ever fail to support violent responses.

When the fuck did I say any of this? Where in this thread did I say something about violence or maligning their culture? Or are you denying arranged marriages are a part of the culture.

$1:

You have in the past shown no respect to me which is entirely why I show you none although you are making every attempt to play the innocent little poster routine.

What the hell are you talking about Derby? Point out, using a link on this site, that I showed you disrespect that you did not initiate. Please, go ahead.

Hell, I remember even thinking the attitudes against you were off, but dear God do I regret it now, considering how I've seen the true side of you.

[DerbyX]

commanderkai commanderkai:

Which you started by putting words into my mouth. Again, Grow up.

NO, you do that by supporting violent wars designed to do just that.

commanderkai commanderkai:

EXACTLY. Right here! Putting words into my own mouth. I never mentioned the use of violence once, but you keep bringing it up.

Thats because you support those actions as you clearly do in Iraq.

commanderkai commanderkai:

The judge was clearly horrified. That's all the article states, we don't know why he was, and putting your opinion why he was horrified does not make it true. Maybe he was horrified that a father can marry off his eight year old daughter to somebody 3 times her age. Or maybe he was horrified at what happened to her.

In the end, he was horrified, and granted a divorce to an illegal marriage, that's all.

In the end you post no proof that these marriages happen with any greater frequency then the ones listed either. No links, no proof, just your belief that its widespread.

commanderkai commanderkai:

So if somebody was committing rape against an eight year old girl next door, they're "entitled" to do such a thing? Or hanging of gays just for being gay? Why not gassing Jews in concentration camps?

(sigh) Do you even think before you post anymore? Our society has laws against that yet it still happens. As already posted their society also has laws against this. They are entitled to enforce their laws as they see fit even if you don't like it. The US executes its citizens as per their laws, an act we as a nation decided was too barbaric to allow in our justice system.

commanderkai commanderkai:

Where does this entitlement come from? Because they're a sovereign nation, thus that makes them allowed to do anything?

Yes, else we are no better then those that wish to enforce their views on others be they religiously or politically motivated.

THIS is where I get my belief you think its OK to use violence to sort out countries with values you don't share. You clearly don't hold the belief that other countries have the right to hold values other then your own and clearly hold the belief that we can use violence to ensure they comply with ours.

What if a larger more powerful society felt that all abortion was the same thing as walking into a nursery and gunning down all the sleeping babies. Would they then have the right to enforce their views on us?

Would they then not be allowed to say we are not entitled to our belief that abortion isn't murder but rather a womens choice?

commanderkai commanderkai:

Hmm, what about the whole fact the marriage was illegal in the first place? You can't exactly enforce Islamic marriage law when the marriage was illegal.

If that were the case then the marriage would be annuled. In fact we recently had a thread about a top muslim cleric saying that arranged marriages by very young girls was legal but their were caveats about not having sex until the women was of proper age.

commanderkai commanderkai:

Oh so there's some sort of Muslim thought control now that there's no way Muslims a generation or two ago could be progressive? Is that it? Wow Derby, how do you know there were no Muslims with these progressive thoughts?

(sigh) Don't be so stupid. First you say there is no progress because they engage in these practices and are making no effort to stop it then say that sure there were progressives thinkers generations ago. Just as our views on womens lib, homosexuality, and mixed race couples were far less progressive generations ago.


When the fuck did I say any of this? Where in this thread did I say something about violence or maligning their culture? Or are you denying arranged marriages are a part of the culture.[/quote]

You aren't maligning their culture when you say that a few brave women doesn't constitute progress out of traditions we find abhorrent?

So you are saying there is no progress because none is needed as they are adequately modernized?

You are clearly implying that there is in fact no progress being made against cultural traditions western morality finds offensive and traditions they feel is part of their religion.

commanderkai commanderkai:

What the hell are you talking about Derby? Point out, using a link on this site, that I showed you disrespect that you did not initiate. Please, go ahead.

I'm sick and tried of trolling through the site providing links for people who don't bother doing the same for me.

Now if you so desire I'll be alittle nicer to you but quite frankly I find your support of the Iraq war (and you never did respond to me using the very UN rules you cited showing the war was illegal) to be disgusting so I'm less inclined to be nice.

If you don't like then feel free not to debate me as you clearly initiated the last few encounters.

[fifeboy]

DerbyX DerbyX:

commanderkai commanderkai:

Which you started by putting words into my mouth. Again, Grow up.

NO, you do that by supporting violent wars designed to do just that.

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If you don't like then feel free not to debate me as you clearly initiated the last few encounters.b

O.K. gents, here is the drill. Either keep the insults short and to the point so we can all


or quit it because all this tedious reading has made me chance my glass prescription twice.