[roger-roger]

Its going to take a lot more then the CBC, a few anti-military shrills and some leftie college students to change public opinion.

[StuntmanMike]

Eisensapper Eisensapper:

Its going to take a lot more then the CBC, a few anti-military shrills and some leftie college students to change public opinion.

Don't count on it. The CF was admired in this country before Somalia, but it only took one dodgy killing to turn the Canadian public against them for a decade. It was only through the superhuman efforts of people like Hillier, Mackenzie and others that public opinion was turned around. Don't think you're immune to it, because you'll be sadly fucking disappointed when it all starts to go bad.

[roger-roger]

The torture and eventual muder of a teenager is a bit different from shooting someone who may or maynot have been a bystander during a fire fight.

[StuntmanMike]

Eisensapper Eisensapper:

The torture and eventual muder of a teenager is a bit different from shooting someone who may or maynot have been a bystander during a fire fight.

Fair enough. Agree to disagree.

Watch and shoot.

[roger-roger]

Im still wondering why you think:

StuntmanMike StuntmanMike:

Why are you military guys so eager to devour your own?

[StuntmanMike]

I challenged you on this quote;

Eisensapper Eisensapper:

Im quite shocked, CFNIS does not charge someone unless they feel they are guilty of the crime. ROEs also clearly state that you will not fire on an unarmed combatant, we will have to see what the trial brings out. Its also a little puzzling to hear the OMLET was in a tic, they are not front line units. My understanding is that when something like this happens the defendant will stand trial in Canada. If found guilty could spend no more than 2 years in a military prison before being transferred to a National Correctional Facility to serve out the rest of his sentence.

The CBC should have waited like CTV did in reporting this, this is news.

I'm just curious as to why you would be so quick to believe that CNIS wouldn't charge someone unless they had an honest belief that the person was guilty. After all, they've shown themselves to be susceptible to political influence in the past. And you seem to be running a trial, questioning why the OMLT was in a certain position at a given time, when you really have no idea of what the exact circumstances of the incident were.

I'm very sympathetic to soldiers, cops, and others in that type of field. And I was under the impression they had a natural tendency to protect each other and show understanding rather than immediately pass judgement, second guess, and offer their brothers up to the gallows the minute an information is sworn.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[roger-roger]

We do protect our own but we also have strict rules to govern ourselves, when people dont follow the rules I dont see a problem in punishing them accordingly.

[EyeBrock]

Eisensapper Eisensapper:

We do protect our own but we also have strict rules to govern ourselves, when people dont follow the rules I dont see a problem in punishing them accordingly.

If they were real investigators.

The NIS are crap. MP's with little real Police experience.
If these guys have laid the charges a decent civvy lawyer will find a charter breach or ten.

[roger-roger]

Right so that is why the NIS are taken into the RCMP detective units on exchanges. If they were not "real" investigators like you claim, why would they be entrusted with civilian cases?

CFNIS officers are given the same training as their RCMP counterparts in various forms of investigation. The NIS member I talk of had specialized in sexual assaults and theft, I would suspect he is the equal of any RCMP officer is the same place.

Why do you have such little faith in the NIS?

[Gunnair]

StuntmanMike StuntmanMike:

Eisensapper Eisensapper:

Its going to take a lot more then the CBC, a few anti-military shrills and some leftie college students to change public opinion.

Don't count on it. The CF was admired in this country before Somalia, but it only took one dodgy killing to turn the Canadian public against them for a decade. It was only through the superhuman efforts of people like Hillier, Mackenzie and others that public opinion was turned around. Don't think you're immune to it, because you'll be sadly fucking disappointed when it all starts to go bad.

Disagree with you there Stuntman...

The CF was a sideshow at that time - admired yes, but in a champion cricket team sort of way. Peacekeeping was the primary mission but it was a low profile mission that got us some international benefits, but as a whole, is more admired now by people disliking the current reality than it was back then. It was also relatively clean.

Now we're in the filthy business of warfighting where human failings under the horrible pressures of combat will inevitably result in these types of incidents. The public will not like it, but as a whole, I believe they will be far more understanding and forgiving of the military as it prosecutes its combat mission. If anything, they will take it out on the government that put them there - like they should have done in Somalia, and this government will be unlikely to be looking for high profile scapegoats.

[Gunnair]

StuntmanMike StuntmanMike:

I challenged you on this quote;

Eisensapper Eisensapper:

Im quite shocked, CFNIS does not charge someone unless they feel they are guilty of the crime. ROEs also clearly state that you will not fire on an unarmed combatant, we will have to see what the trial brings out. Its also a little puzzling to hear the OMLET was in a tic, they are not front line units. My understanding is that when something like this happens the defendant will stand trial in Canada. If found guilty could spend no more than 2 years in a military prison before being transferred to a National Correctional Facility to serve out the rest of his sentence.

The CBC should have waited like CTV did in reporting this, this is news.

I'm just curious as to why you would be so quick to believe that CNIS wouldn't charge someone unless they had an honest belief that the person was guilty. After all, they've shown themselves to be susceptible to political influence in the past. And you seem to be running a trial, questioning why the OMLT was in a certain position at a given time, when you really have no idea of what the exact circumstances of the incident were.

I'm very sympathetic to soldiers, cops, and others in that type of field. And I was under the impression they had a natural tendency to protect each other and show understanding rather than immediately pass judgement, second guess, and offer their brothers up to the gallows the minute an information is sworn.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

The CFNIS, will not lay a charge unless it believe there is a high probability of guilt.

[StuntmanMike]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Disagree with you there Stuntman...

The CF was a sideshow at that time - admired yes, but in a champion cricket team sort of way. Peacekeeping was the primary mission but it was a low profile mission that got us some international benefits, but as a whole, is more admired now by people disliking the current reality than it was back then. It was also relatively clean.

Actually, you raise a good point Gunnair. I suppose one of the things that upset Canadians about Somalia was that until that incident, they saw Canadians as "Peacekeepers" who drove around the Third World handing out teddy bears to kids. The images from Somalia certainly didn't square with that image. I didn't think of that. Good call.

They're probably a little more realisitic in their views of Afghanistan.

But, we'll see how much more realistic (and forgiving) over the next few months.

[ShepherdsDog]

Canada truly came into its own on the battlefields of Europe in World War 1 and 2. Canadian soldiers proved themselves time and time again, and earned the respect of friend and foe alike, as fierce and noble warriors. We didn't do this as peace keepers, tending the aftermath of someone else's battles, but as front line shock troops.

[CommanderSock]

Our soldier's shouldn't be summary executing, even if the people they execute deserve it. We need to present honor to the battlefield, because unlike certain adversaries, we are not barbarians. We have standards, codes, and procedures.

[Gunnair]

CommanderSock CommanderSock:

Our soldier's shouldn't be summary executing, even if the people they execute deserve it. We need to present honor to the battlefield, because unlike certain adversaries, we are not barbarians. We have standards, codes, and procedures.

Since there has yet to be a conviction, there should not be a judgement.