[Terence]

lily lily:

I'm sure your uncle speaks for the entire military.

We're a secular nation made up of a lot of different faiths. What is your fixation on uniformity?

Come now, don't pretend the military doesn't vote Tory.

My fixation is simple. Religion has no business being on an external uniform. It quite simply shows bias to that ideology. Soldiers are not missionaries, and should be neutral in foreign engagements and postings, exception on declared enemies. If religion is allowed to be declared on uniforms, why not political affiliation. I am agnostic and my politics are as important to me as religion is to any religious person I have ever known. I would as easily die for my political convictions as anyone would for religion.

Why do we give religion a freebie and divide us? That is not Canadian at all. It is no different than what the Fundamentalist Bush supporters have been trying to impose south of the border.

P.S. I am a Liberal party member. and I have a life so expecting an immediate response is a bit presumptuous.

[Gunnair]

InternetChatter InternetChatter:

Are there no Canadian sacred cows? What if religious extremists of various ethnicities (religious right included) made the majority. What are you willing to give up in pusuit of this "inclusion" cult. Abortion rights, gay rights, give equal footing yo sharia courts?

It is as if everything we have done to get where we are today was for naught. I am a big fan of Christopher Hitchens. Western civilization is not for sale, or something I want to part with for a few votes. Western liberalism is why we are a free nation, to abandon all of the dressings and heritage is not going to help us sustain it. I fear for the liberal western world that capitulates the truly good and noble advances we have made culturally and philosophically.

Really. So, by allowing Sikhs to wear turbans, or, heaven forbide, allow them their own regiment, it'll signal the fall of western civilization? Were all the previous examples of ethnic accomadation lost on you? It worked well for the British, and it has worked well for Canada with the French Canadians.

So please illustrate how allowing Indo-Canadians their own regiment is somehow worse than allowing French Canadians or Scottish Canadians their own regiments?

By the way, once again I'd ask you to peek through a history book and see how much blood and toil Indians, Japanese (WWI), Nepalese, and Arabs have put into our Western Liberalism and freedom. You just might be surprised.

[Gunnair]

InternetChatter InternetChatter:

lily lily:

I'm sure your uncle speaks for the entire military.

We're a secular nation made up of a lot of different faiths. What is your fixation on uniformity?

Come now, don't pretend the military doesn't vote Tory.

My fixation is simple. Religion has no business being on an external uniform. It quite simply shows bias to that ideology. Soldiers are not missionaries, and should be neutral in foreign engagements and postings, exception on declared enemies. If religion is allowed to be declared on uniforms, why not political affiliation. I am agnostic and my politics are as important to me as religion is to any religious person I have ever known. I would as easily die for my political convictions as anyone would for religion.

Why do we give religion a freebie and divide us? That is not Canadian at all. It is no different than what the Fundamentalist Bush supporters have been trying to impose south of the border.

P.S. I am a Liberal party member. and I have a life so expecting an immediate response is a bit presumptuous.

I suspect you support the removal of priests from the military? Also remove the Naval Prayer, religious ceremonies at Rememberance Day etc. That would certainly be more secular.

[Terence]

You might be surprised to know how big my Greek conflicts to Cold War library and documentary video library is. I doubt there are more than a few here that can match it.

Canada's military is too small to sustain even more divided units. What happens in a united theatre when the French can't communicate with the Sikhs? Already there is enough of that with French and English.

Too bad the Japanese needed a white General to give those freedoms to them (MacArthur) and last time I checked Nepal and the Arab nations weren't in any position to be lecturing us or anyone on civil rights or freedom doctrines.

[Gunnair]

InternetChatter InternetChatter:

You might be surprised to know how big my Greek conflicts to Cold War library and documentary video library is. I doubt there are more than a few here that can match it.

Canada's military is too small to sustain even more divided units. What happens in a united theatre when the French can't communicate with the Sikhs? Already there is enough of that with French and English.

Too bad the Japanese needed a white General to give those freedoms to them (MacArthur) and last time I checked Nepal and the Arab nations weren't in any position to be lecturing us or anyone on civil rights or freedom doctrines.

Apparently you chose not to read my post.

Frankly, I'd put some money on that most military age Sikhs speak English, so I doubt there'd be much of a problem.

The Japanese supported the British in the far east during WWI, capturing the German colonies such as Tsingtao and escorting ANZAC troop ships and searching for German raiders.

Nepal supplied plenty of Ghurkas and the Arab uprising supported British efforts in Palistine. And we didn't even discuss Africa.

Point is, many different ethnic groups fought for our western liberalism and freedom, and surprsingly, they weren't all white nor were they all dressed in a single pattern British uniform.

[Terence]

Nothing I have said precludes Christians, Muslims, Sikhs or anyone from being religious. Just not external displays. You can pray to anyone or thing you wish.

Having Chaplains available to all faiths is a good thing in a military, they aren't carrying C-7s and kicking in your door if you are a threat. Chaplains of Jewish faith or any religion don't just counsel their own in a military structure, they will support anyone. They are a support structure, necessary for mental health for many people.

[Gunnair]

InternetChatter InternetChatter:

Nothing I have said precludes Christians, Muslims, Sikhs or anyone from being religious. Just not external displays. You can pray to anyone or thing you wish.

Having Chaplains available to all faiths is a good thing in a military, they aren't carrying C-7s and kicking in your door if you are a threat. Chaplains of Jewish faith or any religion don't just counsel their own in a military structure, they will support anyone. They are a support structure, necessary for mental health for many people.

Hmmm... no external displays, yet you're happy with Chaplains and religious ceremony?

Hmmmm

[Terence]

The chaplains are not just Christian. They are fairly representative now. As I said, they are a support system, not the fighting force.

I am not hostile to religion like many agnostics or looney leftists.I actually think the core of social programs are best served by multifaith inclusion in delivery of services like the homeless, outreach to the disadvantaged, drug counseling and such.

Just not people who are carrying guns and are assigned the ability to use lethal force. It sets a bad precedent.

[TattoodGirl]

So what you are saying is that no one who is religious should be part of a combat mission?

Only atheists and maybe agnostics then?

[Terence]

TattoodGirl TattoodGirl:

So what you are saying is that no one who is religious should be part of a combat mission?

Only atheists and maybe agnostics then?

I don't know why you are being this obtuse and making things up?

Nothing I have said bans religious people or religion from recruiting or service. Just from the external uniform. To be frank, I'd say there is a similar proportion of seriously religious members in the military than there is in Canadian society.

Religion has no place in the laws or institutions of a free secular country. But the right to be religious and not beholden to any specific one, or institutionalized adherence is something I believe is worth dying for.

[Gunnair]

InternetChatter InternetChatter:

The chaplains are not just Christian. They are fairly representative now. As I said, they are a support system, not the fighting force.

I am not hostile to religion like many agnostics or looney leftists.I actually think the core of social programs are best served by multifaith inclusion in delivery of services like the homeless, outreach to the disadvantaged, drug counseling and such.

Just not people who are carrying guns and are assigned the ability to use lethal force. It sets a bad precedent.

Supporting the system supports the fighting force.

[Terence]

What have I said tonight that infringes on anyones right to worship as they please on their off duty hours. Or entrenches any favoritism? I believe soldiers need MORE support systems, better pay, better equipment and any religious requirements for people in combat is something I have no problem paying for since they are have no ability to do so, off base, in most of the modern combat zones.

Sikhs included.

[Gunnair]

InternetChatter InternetChatter:

What have I said tonight that infringes on anyones right to worship as they please on their off duty hours. Or entrenches any favoritism? I believe soldiers need MORE support systems, better pay, better equipment and any religious requirements for people in combat is something I have no problem paying for since they are have no ability to do so, off base, in most of the modern combat zones.

Sikhs included.

What you have said precludes some of the out of the box thinking that might increase recruiting amongst some of our ethnic groups that might be thrilled to belong to a regiment that reflects their traditions and cultural values within the context of the Canadian ideal. Kinda like our Quebecois and Scottish regiments do.

Ultimately, this is about using cultural accomodation to sell the CF and bring in numbers. We've done it before with ethnic groups such as the Quebecois and the Scottish, why is it an issue now? Colour? Turbans?

Please explain the change?

[Terence]

I think the biggest recruiting challenge is the pay issue and awful support for injured servicemen/women. The Conservatives need a fire lit under their asses on this issue. That is a national disgrace since soldiers have been coming back injured in 2002 to present. You can't expect people to volunteer when the soldiers who sacrificed their limbs and bodies are being screwed over day after day.

My family is a mix of French Acadian / French Protestant Loyalists of NB/NS heritage, and as someone whose family has a history in those units you are mistaken if you think the Highland units are entrenching Scottish or Irish culture, it is legacy and unit recognition of those who died in uniform from earlier fights. If they spoke Gaelic and made you dance the Céilidh I'd support banning them.

Quebec is an admitted hot potato and to honest, plenty of French died and sacrificed in the creation of OUR modern state, regardless of which side they were on . Sikhs and Muslim didn't have the Indian (Aboriginal) wars, clear the Maritimes and Upper and Lower Canada for settlement, or contribute to the entrenchment of our hodgepodge of Provincial/Monarchy traditions. But that DOESN'T make them less Canadian, or deserving of lesser freedoms op inclusion.

I admit I prefer NB French to the Quebecois, due to the different cultures and loyalties. But I respect the Quebecois' differences and different heritage, just don't agree with many policies.

[roger-roger]

As far as I know the British, Canadian, and Australian militaries are the only ones who allow racial uniforms. The only reason the Canadian and Australian militaries allow theirs is because of our British ties. I am a little bit more passionate this thread then most because I feel that racial separation by any means does not stifle bigotry, it inflames it. There is a reason that females in the military do not wear skirts anymore.
If you want a different uniform, fine, but keep the change subtle. I know your all going to point out the highlanders, but the kilt is ceremonial and in a reserve regiment. The French, do not have a all French regiment or a English excluding regiment. Anyone can join the Highlanders or the Vandoos, could I join the Punjabi regiment, only if I embraced their religion.