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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:12 pm
 


For our Polish friends:

When you hear the air attack warning you and your family must take cover immediately.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:16 pm
 


herbie herbie:
Nicaragua
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Panama
Grenada

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.


That was the Cold War Herbie. Now we are well into the latest version of it. Time to choose a side. Europe, the part that still has balls is.
I don't know how old you are but a few of us remember the Cold War very well. This is the redux.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:52 pm
 


This is redux? Just because Reagan said the Cold War is over don't make it anymore true than when Bush said Mission Accomplished. Just another case of the Yanks stating a non-thruth to lull the public is all.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:18 pm
 


There have been a lot of other signs/red flags on the renewal of soviet style politics in Putin's Russia wada. I'm sure you are aware of many of them.

I don't think I need to be a bona fide soothsayer to predict a period of piss-poor relations between the West and Russia.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:24 pm
 


Dont everyone laugh too hard when you watch the video,
or smile too much about hearing the siren.

Every town in the East is still wired up with the air raid equipment,
and they still do the drills, every month.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:57 pm
 


EyeBrock EyeBrock:
djakeydd djakeydd:
Ah give it up, Russia is a sovereign nation and they are protecting their nationals and their backyard interests by being in Georgia and they have far more right to be there than the fascist oil corps. Speaking of who has been meddling over there, choke on this one - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3406941.stm If you think anyone is gonna piss with Russia and continue it as the west, ie. bushco etc. have been doing for the past 10+ years, you have just seen the results of such action front and center. The Georgians got their ass kicked by being an agressor against a TOTALLY superior force, they and their backers are idiots. Just listen to one sentence out of the mouth of the fool Condi Rice on this topic says it all.

One other thing, are you saying you believe this missile shield is to protect Ukraine from rogue nations, most notably Iran?


Unfortunately, and fortunately for them, a good many ex-Soviet slave states disagree with that simplistic and pro-Russian stance you have adopted.
The Czechs, Poles, Estonians, Latvians and Ukranians see Russia as a huge threat. But what would they know?
They have only been invaded by jolly old Russia every few decades or so for the past 300 years, give or take a half a century.

Russia is behaving as if it was the CCCP again. Pretty bloody obvious stuff.



Sorry, I am not pro-Russian. I am trying to point out that Russia is a powerful, visceral country and they are not to be screwed with in their back yard - that behavior towards them from the west has been going on for some time now, and the chickens in Georgia are coming home to roost. Putin is a ruthless strategist, Saaskivili is an idiot, that much is obvious and the sooner we in the west come to grips with that, the better off we will be.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:46 am
 


martin14 martin14:
Dont everyone laugh too hard when you watch the video,
or smile too much about hearing the siren.

Every town in the East is still wired up with the air raid equipment,
and they still do the drills, every month.


I hear the sirens and listen to the drills and announcements.I know that every little town in the Czech Republic has the load speakers. They use them for local events also.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:04 am
 


kinda frightening...


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:07 am
 


llama66 llama66:
kinda frightening...



the first couple of times you hear it.. oh yeah :)
damn near shit my pants the first one ROTFL

now, it just reminds you its Friday.. but the equipment is still there.....


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:35 am
 


martin14 martin14:
Dont everyone laugh too hard when you watch the video,
or smile too much about hearing the siren.

Every town in the East is still wired up with the air raid equipment,
and they still do the drills, every month.

Haven't had an air raid drill here for awhile(it's a creepy sound and the streets go dead except for emergency vehicles), but on Kinmen they use to have drills frequently, during which time civilians were expected to stay indoors. As recently as 97, the Chinese had 'exercises' and dropped a couple of missiles outside of the harbour. Most Taiwanese hope that is a thing of the past, with Ma Ying Jeou as the current president.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:00 am
 


What is Russia Afraid of?

$1:
True, Russia is no longer Soviet. But its ruling clique, led by former President and current Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, remains steeped in the paranoid, highly controlled, conspiracy-obsessed culture of the old KGB. He and his entourage are not Communists, but neither do they believe in free markets or free societies. Instead, all important decisions must be made in Moscow by a small, unelected group of people who know how to resist sabotage organized from abroad. Events cannot be allowed to just happen; they must be controlled and manipulated. Elections cannot just take place; they must be determined in advance.

Today's Russian leaders, despite the paranoia they learned in KGB training, have far more profound relationships with Western institutions, not only the G-8 and the Council of Europe but the Western banks and companies that invest their money and manage their property. Today's Europe is theoretically better prepared to engage Russia, though it has not done so until now.

The critical question now is whether the West is prepared to behave like the West, to speak with one voice and create a common trans-Atlantic policy. In recent years, Russia has preferred to deal with Western countries and their leaders one by one. Just last week, an affiliate of Gazprom, the Russian state-dominated gas company, added a former Finnish prime minister to its payroll—which already includes former German Chancellor Gerhard Schröder. If we hang together instead of allowing Gazprom to pick us all off separately, there is at least a chance that this minichill won't last another 40 years.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:52 am
 


EyeBrock EyeBrock:
herbie herbie:
Nicaragua
El Salvador
Panama
Grenada

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.


That was the Cold War Herbie. Now we are well into the latest version of it. Time to choose a side. Europe, the part that still has balls is.
I don't know how old you are but a few of us remember the Cold War very well. This is the redux.


Yeah that was so long ago no one can remember it.... hell let's toss Chile into the mix too.
Not one country was on the border. Not one had massive American populations. Not one slimly elected a gov't that ran off in a week trying to join the Soviet alliance.
And none of them were run by someone who got quite so 'suckered' running in guns ablaze to retake territories full of hostile peacekeepers with reinforcements 15 minutes away.
The Polish gov't rammed the missile deal through as fast as they could without proper debate and I'd keep an eye on the Polish papers the next little while. I bet the Polish people aren't too pleased with them right now.

What I'm saying Eyebrock is that if the USA claims the Western Hemisphere as it's "Sphere of Influence" then Georgia is clearly Russia's.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:13 pm
 


Georgia is definitely within Russia's sphere of influence. Ole Pappy Bush can read it and weep, his vaunted new world order is going down the toilet as fast as the contents of a 26er goes down dubyas throat [B-o] .

Georgia's U.S. equipped military is down the tube..

August 16, 2008
by Ian Traynor
The Guardian

Pity Georgia's bedraggled First Infantry Brigade. And its Second. And its hapless Navy.

For the past few evenings in the foothills of the Southern Caucasus on the outskirts of Joseph Stalin's hometown of Gori, reconnaissance units of Russia's 58th Army have been raking through the spoils of war at what was the Georgian Army's pride and joy, a shiny new military base inaugurated only last January for the First Infantry, the Army Engineers, and an Artillery Brigade.

A couple of hours to the west, in the town of Senaki, it's the same picture. A flagship military base, home to the Second Infantry Brigade, is in Russian hands. And down on the Black Sea coast, the radars and installations for Georgia's sole naval base at Poti have been scrupulously pinpointed by the Russians and destroyed.

Gori and Senaki are not ramshackle relics of the old Red Army of the type that litter the landscape of eastern Europe. "These bases have only recently been upgraded to NATO standard," said Matthew Clements, Eurasia analyst at Jane's Information Group. "They have been operationally targeted to seriously degrade the Georgian military."

"There is a presence of our armed forces near Gori and Senaki. We make no secret of it," said the general staff in Moscow. "They are there to defuse an enormous arsenal of weapons and military hardware which have been discovered in the vicinity of Gori and Senaki without any guard whatsoever."

The "enormous arsenals" are American-made or American-supplied. American money, know-how, planning, and equipment built these bases as part of Washington's drive to bring NATO membership to a small country that is Russia's underbelly.

The American "train and equip" mission for the Georgian military is six years old. It has been destroyed in as many days. And with it, Georgia's NATO ambitions. "There are a few countries that will say 'told you so'" about the need to get Georgia into NATO," said Andrew Wilson, Russia expert at the European Council on Foreign Relations. "But many more will want to walk away from the problem. And for the next few years, Georgia will be far too busy trying to pick itself up."

If Georgia and NATO are the principal casualties of this week's ruthless display of brute power by Vladimir Putin, the consequences are bigger still, the fallout immense, if uncertain. The regional and the global balance of power looks to have tilted, against the west and in favour of the rising or resurgent players of the east.

In a seminal speech in Munich last year, Putin confidently warned the west that he would not tolerate the age of American hyperpower. Seven years in office at the time and at the height of his powers, he delivered his most anti-western tirade

Pernicious

To an audience that included John McCain, the White House contender, and Robert Gates, the US defence secretary and ex-Kremlinologist, he served notice: "What is a unipolar world? It refers to one type of situation, one centre of authority, one centre of force, one centre of decision-making. It is world in which there is one master, one sovereign. This is pernicious ... unacceptable ... impossible."

This week, he turned those words into action, demonstrating the limits of US power with his rout of Georgia. His forces roamed at will along the roads of the Southern Caucasus, beyond Russia's borders for the first time since the disastrous Soviet occupation of Afghanistan in the 1980s.

As the Russian officers sat on the American stockpiles of machine guns, ammunition, and equipment in Gori, they were savouring a highly unusual scenario. Not since the Afghan war had the Russians seized vast caches of US weaponry. "People are sick to the stomach in Washington," said a former Pentagon official. And the Russians are giddy with success.

Celebrating the biggest victory in eight years of what might be termed Putinism, the dogged pursuit by whatever means to avenge a long period of Russian humiliation and to deploy his limited range of levers - oil, gas, or brute force - to make the world listen to Moscow, the Russian prime minister has redrawn the geopolitical map.

In less than a week, Putin has invaded another country, effectively partitioned Georgia in a lightning campaign, weakened his arch-enemy, President Mikheil Saakashvili, divided the west, and presented a fait accompli. The impact - locally, regionally, and globally - is huge.

"The war in Georgia has put the European order in question," said Alexander Rahr, one of Germany's leading Russia experts and a Putin biographer. "The times are past when you can punish Russia."

That seems to be the view among leading European policymakers who have been scrambling all week to arrange and shore up a fragile ceasefire, risking charges of appeasing the Kremlin.

"Don't ask us who's good and who's bad here," said Bernard Kouchner, the French foreign minister, after shuttling between Tbilisi and Moscow to try to halt the violence. "We shouldn't make any moral judgments on this war. Stopping the war, that's what we're interested in."

His boss, President Nicolas Sarkozy, went to the Kremlin to negotiate a ceasefire and parade as a peacemaker. Critics said he acted as Moscow's messenger, noting Putin's terms then taking them to Tbilisi to persuade Saakashvili to capitulate. Germany also refused to take sides while Italy warned against building an "anti-Moscow coalition".

That contrasted with Gordon Brown's and David Milliband's talk of Russian "aggression" and Condoleezza Rice's arrival in Tbilisi yesterday to rally "the free world behind a free Georgia".

The effects of Putin's coup are first felt locally and around Russia's rim. "My view is that the Russians, and I would say principally prime minister Putin, is interested in reasserting Russia's, not only Russia's great power or superpower status, but in reasserting Russia's traditional spheres of influence," said Gates. "My guess is that everyone is going to be looking at Russia through a different set of lenses as we look ahead."

In Kiev certainly. Ukraine's pro-western prime minister, Viktor Yushchenko, Saaksahvili's fellow colour-revolutionary, is chastened and wary. His firebrand anti-Russian prime minister, Yuliya Tymoshenko, has gone uncharacteristically quiet.

Invasion of the Ukraine?

"An invasion of Ukraine by 'peacekeeping tanks' is just a question of time," wrote Aleksandr Sushko, director of Kiev's Institute of Euro-Atlantic Cooperation. "Weimar Russia is completing its transformation into something else. If Russia wins this war, a new order will take shape in Europe which will have no place for Ukraine as a sovereign state."

All around Russia's rim, the former Soviet "captive states" are trembling. Even Belarus, the slavishly loyal "last dictatorship in Europe", went strangely silent, taking days before the regime offered Moscow its support. "Everybody's nervous," said Wilson.

The EU states of the Baltic and Poland are drumming up support for Georgia, with the Polish president Lech Kaczynski declaring that Russia has revealed "its true face". That divides the EU since the French and the Germans refuse to take sides and are scornful of east European "hysteria" towards Russia. Rahr in Berlin says the German and French governments are striving to keep the Poles and the Baltic states well away from any EU-led peace negotiations. It was the Germans and the French who, in April, blunted George Bush's drive to get Georgia into NATO. They will also resist potential US moves to kick Russia out of the G8 or other international bodies.

There are many who argue that Putin's gamble will backfire, that he has bitten off more than he can chew, that Russia remains weak, a "Saudi Arabia with trees" in the words of Robert Hunter, the former US ambassador to NATO.

Compared to the other rising powers of China, India or even Brazil - the companions referred to as the BRIC - Russia does indeed appear weak. Its economy struggles to develop goods or services, depends on raw material exports and on European consumption and the price of oil for its current wealth.

Resources

But Putin's talent is for playing a weak hand well, maximising and concentrating his limited resources, and creating facts on the ground while the west dithers.

"There is a lack of a clear and unified European policy towards Russia," said Clements. In the crucial contest over energy "the Russian strategy of keeping control of exports and supply is outpacing any European response".

Putin may now calculate he can call off the dogs of war, having achieved his aims and able to pocket his gains very cheaply. The Georgia campaign becomes the triumphant climax of Putinism.

"In politics, it is very important to know one's measure," wrote Aleksey Arbatov, director of Moscow's International Security Centre. "If Russia continues to inflict strikes on Georgian territory, on facilities, on population centres, we may lose the moral supremacy we have today."

But Wilson and many in eastern Europe worry that rather than being the climax of Putinism, the Russians in Georgia signal the start of something else. "This may not be a culmination, but only step one," said Wilson. "If you don't stop this kind of behaviour, it escalates."

____________

This thing has proven both Bush and Cheney to be a pair of the most hapless, halfwit administrators in U.S. history. On the heels of the innumerable soiled diapers they have left scattered throughout the middle east, equipping a foreign nation with know how and weaponry and then to be exposed in this manner is unbelievable. They should hang their heads in shame, they have done irrepairable damage to U.S. interests in every sphere imaginable.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:48 pm
 


herbie herbie:
EyeBrock EyeBrock:
herbie herbie:
Nicaragua
El Salvador
Panama
Grenada

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.


That was the Cold War Herbie. Now we are well into the latest version of it. Time to choose a side. Europe, the part that still has balls is.
I don't know how old you are but a few of us remember the Cold War very well. This is the redux.


Yeah that was so long ago no one can remember it.... hell let's toss Chile into the mix too.
Not one country was on the border. Not one had massive American populations. Not one slimly elected a gov't that ran off in a week trying to join the Soviet alliance.
And none of them were run by someone who got quite so 'suckered' running in guns ablaze to retake territories full of hostile peacekeepers with reinforcements 15 minutes away.
The Polish gov't rammed the missile deal through as fast as they could without proper debate and I'd keep an eye on the Polish papers the next little while. I bet the Polish people aren't too pleased with them right now.

What I'm saying Eyebrock is that if the USA claims the Western Hemisphere as it's "Sphere of Influence" then Georgia is clearly Russia's.


You can't see the difference?
All the countries you mentioned (quite correctly I might add) did suffer/experience considerable US interference in their domestic affairs during the Cold War.
This is 2008.

The invasion of Iraq is a separate debate and much thread-band-width has been posted pro and anti this subject.

A cursory read of Russian politics/history for the past 300-400 years shows a pattern of invasion and occupation of Russia's neighbours on numerous occasions.
Things appeared to change during the Gorbachov era but Putin has rewound the clock back and we appear to have the status quo of invasive politics returning to the Kremlin.
We have Russian generals (as in not politicians) threatening independent nations such as Poland and the Czech Republic for daring to consort with the EU, NATO and the Yanks. Independent being the operative word.
Telling them that having defensive missiles on their territory now makes them a target of Russian missiles? WTF?

The Russians invaded a country using the same pretext Hitler used to invade the Sudetenland. These are historical precedents that should not sit well with us all.

To believe the Russians is to invite disappointment.
They told Sarkozy they would pull out of Georgia on Monday.
It's Wednesday night now. Russian artillery is still 30 clicks from Tbilisi, and Russian Army roadblocks still dot the country, strangling the economy. The Russians are digging in deploying SS21 tactical nukes in South Ossetia.

So much for Russian promises. As ironclad as those given in 1938 at Munich.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:33 pm
 


herbie herbie:
Poke sleeping bear with stick, bear will poke you.
Even dumber to poke grumpy bear.


That's why it's best just to shoot the damned thing. PDT_Armataz_01_35


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