[DerbyX]

Group Response:

$1:

For RR:

1) Qualified? Everybody is to determine whether we should stay or go. The qualified part comes from how to best achieve that goal and quite frankly not a single white non-muslim has any clue how to bring peace to people who must bring it to themselves. As I right this a journalist has been sentenced to death by the people we installed as the gov't and our allies fro "insulting islam".

I said it before, the people we are allied with are every bit as bad as those we are fighting.

2) Liberal? Emerson was a Liberal and 'Harpers worst nightmare" shortly before he became a Conservative. Belinda ran for leadership of the CPC and became a Liberal. Quite frankly I wouldn't be the least surprised if Manley joined the CPC a few months from now and it wouldn't surprise you either. They just need to make sure it no longer looks "suspicious".

Cynicism aside, it should be obvious that Harper absolutely had to have a Liberal in order to achieve any degree of validity. He also knew what position his gov't wanted and as Eyebrock demonstarted its very easy to know somebodies position ahead of time. He picked the people designed to produce the result he wanted.

Logic aside, the fact that Manley is a Liberal does not mean that Dion is obligated to accept the report generated from Harpers handpicked team. Had the party leaders had some say in who was on the panel then you would have a point.

The fact is that Dion doesn't even have to say anything until Harper proposes a plan of action. Saying you support the recommendations is far from saying "My gov't will do exactly that".

Harper wants "wiggle room" and Dion isn't going have his "support" for the Manley report be spun into auto acceptance of Harpers legislation based on the report "with önly a few adjustments".

Thats why its up to Harper to propose a plan to the Liberals.

BTW, the Liberals already stated that they support (pre-report) some of the findings, namely that we focus on support and reconstruction but reject an open-ended timeframe that could see us there for the next 60 years. This isn't Lahr.

In addition the only person bitching here is you. I'm presenting facts that you construe as bitching.

Now your comment about accepting the report as honest and genuine once again leads me to believe you have trouble with english comprehension.

I do believe the report is genuine and honest. Thats my point. Jack Layton is being Genuine and honest. Of course the people who generated the report believe in it and are being honest, thats why Harper choose them.

Thats my point. He choose them because he knew how they felt and what way they would lean.

I did not suggest, infer, or even hint that they were lying or that Harper choose them to "lie for him".

They can be honest and genuine but its still their opinion. They can also be wrong. If Laytons people generated a report do you not believe that they too would be honest and genuine yet compile a complately different answer?

Once again I will point out that so what if there are dissentions in the Liberal ranks. There are dissentions in the CPC ranks. I will also point out taht nothing you say can change the fact that Harper must deal with Dion to get something done and the responsibility lies entirely with Harper to offer Dion a plan he will accept no different then a budget proposal

If he fails then fault lies with him.

$1:

For Eyebrock:

I think I covered an answer to your question but just in case.

Emerson was a take no shit Liberal also. Belineda was a take no shit Conservative. Regardless, its still his opinion and Dion is under no obligation to accept his recommendations anymore then you feel we are obligated to accept Laytons.

Layton brings up my next point. You guys seem to talk alot about "solidarity" and the abhorance of partisan politics during a time of war and dealing directly with our involvement but you guys are often your own worst enemy.

Quite frankly calling Layton and the NDP taliban traitors is partisanship by definition.

Even worse you seem bound and determined to sabotage any possible support from the Liberals and they are the only party willing to support you. The Liberals have been blamed for just about every combat death in the worst vilification yet you expect them to extend the mission unchanged?

Why? So they can be blamed for all the additional deaths as well? Would you?

Then there is that BS about Dion saying "lets invade Pakistan". A crock and you know it. Harper wants Dions support yet he allows his second in command to twist Dions words, antagonize our "älly" Pakistan, and piss Dion off with a cheap partisan attempt to score points?

You should be the people saying "Harper get that asshole undercontrol" before we push Dion firmly into Laytons camp. Harper failed. He failed the troops and he failed any Canadian who supports a continued presence there by letting it happen. He endangered the mission and the troops in an effort to score cheap political points by risking Dion finally snapping and saying "thats it, you treat me like this and you want my support? Fuck you, I'm siding with Jack." Quite frankly its to Dions credit that he hasn't responded like that.

Solidarity would have been to have Peter defend his words the same way he defende that asshole American who slagged all the non-US troops in the region.

I already know your feelings about the disgusting hypocarcy of partisan hacks attack Dion both for visiting and not visitng Afghanistan but I gotta ask myself are the Con so retarded they can't see the stupidity of their actions or are they just so blind they can't help it? The OR is for your benefit. It would have been AND on another day.

Its simply unbelievable that the same people insisting the Liberals support their view of the mission are the same people that attack them night and day about it.

I often yell and scream and berate the people I plan to ask favours from.

The bottom line is that the CPC and its military supporting supporters haven't given any reason for Dion to support them other then the honest belief in supporting stated mission goals.

Its entirely likely that as the insults keep piling up more and more Liberals will decide they are not going to support people who vilify them at every turn.

Would you?

(I think I earned a second typewriter medal eh? )

[DerbyX]

dino_bobba_renno dino_bobba_renno:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Layton is just a left wing anti-war socialist who's only retort is for us to pull out. Why would anybody appoint him to anything?
He's a waste of nice suits and rations.

My god I could imagine the grand standing if layton was on the panel.
Manley was a good choice in my opinion. Don't forget Derb that he delt as many blows to the Conservatives as he did to the Lib's position on the war.

Sorry, I missed you.

In case you haven't got the time to read above, I'll give a coles notes version.

Harper knew Manleys position and choose him accordingly.

Dion isn't obligated to accept the Manley report anymore the Harper is obligated to accept Laytons opinion.

The onus resides on Harper to present a plan for the Liberals to support.

Thats what a minority gov't means. He did it for his budget proposals and made deals with the NDP to get it passed. Just like then he needs Liberal support and DIon isn't obligated to support anything let alone whatever Harper proposes. Thats where the give and take of working things out needs to happen.

Not "Accept the Manley report or else".

[dino_bobba_renno]

DerbyX DerbyX:

dino_bobba_renno dino_bobba_renno:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Layton is just a left wing anti-war socialist who's only retort is for us to pull out. Why would anybody appoint him to anything?
He's a waste of nice suits and rations.

My god I could imagine the grand standing if layton was on the panel.
Manley was a good choice in my opinion. Don't forget Derb that he delt as many blows to the Conservatives as he did to the Lib's position on the war.

Sorry, I missed you.

In case you haven't got the time to read above, I'll give a coles notes version.

Harper knew Manleys position and choose him accordingly.

Dion isn't obligated to accept the Manley report anymore the Harper is obligated to accept Laytons opinion.

The onus resides on Harper to present a plan for the Liberals to support.

Thats what a minority gov't means. He did it for his budget proposals and made deals with the NDP to get it passed. Just like then he needs Liberal support and DIon isn't obligated to support anything let alone whatever Harper proposes. Thats where the give and take of working things out needs to happen.

Not "Accept the Manley report or else".

You seem to be reading a little too deeply into my posts, where did I make the comment that Dion "MUST" accept the Manley report? I said I thought he was a good choice for the review. But now that we’re on that topic I think you’ll have to admit that Dion has backed himself into a bit of corner here. While no politician, be it Conservative or Liberal, has to accept the terms of the report hands down the simple fact that Manley did such a good job on the report is going to make it hard for anyone to ignore his recommendations. Unfortunately Dion has some hard choices to make here, if he rejects the reports conclusions then he will be lumped in with crazy Layton who Dion has openly criticized on this subject and if he accepts the reports findings then he will be seen as waffling. Oh and I all most forgot, if he sticks with his “non-combatâ€

[DerbyX]

dino_bobba_renno dino_bobba_renno:

DerbyX DerbyX:

dino_bobba_renno dino_bobba_renno:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Layton is just a left wing anti-war socialist who's only retort is for us to pull out. Why would anybody appoint him to anything?
He's a waste of nice suits and rations.

My god I could imagine the grand standing if layton was on the panel.
Manley was a good choice in my opinion. Don't forget Derb that he delt as many blows to the Conservatives as he did to the Lib's position on the war.

Sorry, I missed you.

In case you haven't got the time to read above, I'll give a coles notes version.

Harper knew Manleys position and choose him accordingly.

Dion isn't obligated to accept the Manley report anymore the Harper is obligated to accept Laytons opinion.

The onus resides on Harper to present a plan for the Liberals to support.

Thats what a minority gov't means. He did it for his budget proposals and made deals with the NDP to get it passed. Just like then he needs Liberal support and DIon isn't obligated to support anything let alone whatever Harper proposes. Thats where the give and take of working things out needs to happen.

Not "Accept the Manley report or else".

You seem to be reading a little too deeply into my posts, where did I make the comment that Dion "MUST" accept the Manley report? I said I thought he was a good choice for the review. But now that we’re on that topic I think you’ll have to admit that Dion has backed himself into a bit of corner here. While no politician, be it Conservative or Liberal, has to accept the terms of the report hands down the simple fact that Manley did such a good job on the report is going to make it hard for anyone to ignore his recommendations. Unfortunately Dion has some hard choices to make here, if he rejects the reports conclusions then he will be lumped in with crazy Layton who Dion has openly criticized on this subject and if he accepts the reports findings then he will be seen as waffling. Oh and I all most forgot, if he sticks with his “non-combatâ€

[ridenrain]

The change of tone is noted and appreciated, but nothing really changed. Harper & Dion will be meeting today and we'll see what comes of it. I agree that cooperation is needed but this is politics after all.

Word has it that Dion's president is looking at bringing some help into the south. I'm not sure how good these French will be. They have all the right gear but it remains to be seen if the spirit is there.

[ridenrain]

Just to return to the weakness of the Liberal position.. The CPC are now willing to put their government on the line over that one.

$1:

Harper to put government on line
Tories are readying a confidence motion over extending Canada's role, PM says
BRIAN LAGHI

OTTAWA BUREAU CHIEF; With a report from The Canadian Press

February 6, 2008

Prime Minister Stephen Harper is prepared to put his minority government on the line over the future of the Afghanistan mission after he warned Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion that the Tories are preparing a confidence motion that could be voted on as early as next week.

A source told The Globe and Mail that the government is prepared to give notice tomorrow of the motion that Canada's role be extended. If the government were to lose, it could plunge the country into an election.

Mr. Harper issued the warning during a 25-minute meeting between the two men yesterday to discuss the future of the Afghan mission and a possible compromise over Canada's presence in the strife-torn province of Kandahar.

The Liberals are divided on the issue, but Mr. Dion has said that he will whip the vote, meaning the party must vote as one. The NDP and the Bloc Quebecois are already against the mission, demanding that it end by 2009. The Liberals, however, have said there may be room for some compromise.
However, Mr. Dion has told Mr. Harper that he won't budge from his condition that any Canadian role
in Afghanistan after 2009 not include a combat function.

Mr. Dion laid out the position as he and Mr. Harper discussed ways for Canada to move forward in warring country after its mission ends in 2009.The two men got together for 25 minutes in a meeting aimed at finding common ground on a report from the panel led by former foreign affairs minister John Manley, which suggests that Canada leave Kandahar in 2009 if NATO doesn't provide another 1,000 troops, helicopters and unmanned aircraft.

"Mr. Dion made clear the Liberal Party's long-standing position on the mission in Afghanistan, including our firm and unwavering belief that the combat mission in Kandahar must end by February, 2009," said a statement released by Mr. Dion after the meeting ended late yesterday afternoon.

Mr. Dion would release no further details yesterday. The Tories support the Manley proposal and need the backing of the Liberals to push ahead with continued Canadian presence in Kandahar. It's unclear whether Mr. Dion offered a compromise. His officials said yesterday that the leader plans to discuss the issue with his caucus today.

"The Prime Minister reiterated the government's position - that we are adopting the bi-partisan recommendations of the Manley panel - and that if we are unable to secure extra combat troops and equipment, Canada will not be extending the mission in Afghanistan," said a statement from the Prime Minister's Office.

[DerbyX]

How is the Liberal position weak? Sounds to me that Dion, in direct contradiction to everybody who said he was waffling or that he had no plan, seems to have told Harper what the Liberal plan is quite clearly. Just because Harper is saying that the Manley report will basically become his gov'ts plan doesn't mean Dion has to accept it especially considering the Liberal position was developed before the report.

Harper seems to be saying "look, I included a Liberal therefore the report should be accepted as is by the Liberals". He isn't compromising or negotiating or even offering any reason for the Liberals to accept his proposal.

Its Harpers job to offer a compromise in order to get the support he wants and not Dions to offer a compromise though it would be nice to see him offer something.

If Harper wants to say "vote to support the Manley report recommendations or the gov't falls" then so be it.

[dino_bobba_renno]

Dion "unwavering" on deadline

Well Derb, looks like your buddy Dion has really done it this time. Dion seems to be holding fast to his 2009 exit from combat roles date. So much for compromise. What was it I was saying about backing himself into a corner? I hate to say it but Dion is going to have to give on this sooner or later and the more he holds out the more it will seem that he is raising a white flag once he does give in. Dion may want to stand by his 2009 date but the Liberals are in no position to force an election over this issue and I’ll bet that others in the Liberal party will be less than thrilled if they have to fight an election over the Afghanistan mission particularly with Harper holding the fast to the Manley report. Dion has painted himself into a corner so badly that he is starting to get paint on his shoes.

[ridenrain]

You are right that there is no duty upon Dion to adopt the Manley report, and negotiation is necessary, but the selection of John Manly to run the independent report was a brilliant move and highlights the divide between Liberal party members. The mission extension was a free vote and still 30 Liberal members voted contrary to their leader, including the 2nd highest ranked person. This time Dion will whip the vote and the voices of those members will not be heard.

Will Dion risk bringing down the government and being forced to fight an unprepared election over something that possibly half his membership believes in? I guess we'll find out in a couple days.

[DerbyX]

dino_bobba_renno dino_bobba_renno:

Dion "unwavering" on deadline

Well Derb, looks like your buddy Dion has really done it this time. Dion seems to be holding fast to his 2009 exit from combat roles date. So much for compromise. What was it I was saying about backing himself into a corner? I hate to say it but Dion is going to have to give on this sooner or later and the more he holds out the more it will seem that he is raising a white flag once he does give in. Dion may want to stand by his 2009 date but the Liberals are in no position to force an election over this issue and I’ll bet that others in the Liberal party will be less than thrilled if they have to fight an election over the Afghanistan mission particularly with Harper holding the fast to the Manley report. Dion has paint himself into a corner so badly that he is starting to get paint on his shoes.

What compromise? What compromise did Harper offer? Nothing. He didn't try to offer anything at all, he just said "support the report my guys compiled".

Harper is facing all 3 parties rejecting his "compromise" now. Only the Liberals were willing to budge but he didn't do a damn thing. You guys keep thinking that Dion was supposed to agree with the Manley report.

Harper dropped the ball on this and quite frankly given his poll numbers (means little I know), I don't think he can hope to achieve a majority and when he doesn't he will still be facing 3 parties opposing him on this (assuming he doesn't lose the election).

He's the person who should have compromised, not Dion.

Just who has given Dion any reason to compromise? The troops, who almost everybody on this forum say hate Dion and laughed at him his last trip to the Stan? Harper, who has belittled DIon any chance he got and vilified him the rest of the time?

Not a single person has given Dion any reason whatsoever to compromise his position and quite frankly if he did I doubt any of you would congradulate him. All you would say is that he was a weak leader who waffled at the same time you praised Harper for getting the job done.

Harper had his chance to make the deal and blew it. Let him make it a confidence motion and bring on the election because only a CPC majority it seems will seal the deal on Afghanistan and there is no way at all Canadians will give Harper and the CPC a majority.

No way at all.

[dino_bobba_renno]

Derb, Harper has all ready compromised a bit by accepting the findings of the report. Should he go further by extending an olive branch to Dion and giving into some concessions? Ya maybe but the point here is he doesn’t have to. He’s holding all the cards. For Dion to hold fast to his 2009 date is political suicide. Not only will he have to fight the conservatives but he will have to fight half of his own party while doing it. Dion isn’t a bad guy at the end of the day but he really isn’t doing the Lib’s any favours as party leader. His political inexperience is showing more and more every day.

[DerbyX]

dino_bobba_renno dino_bobba_renno:

Derb, Harper has all ready compromised a bit by accepting the findings of the report. Should he go further by extending an olive branch to Dion and giving into some concessions? Ya maybe but the point here is he doesn’t have to. He’s holding all the cards. For Dion to hold fast to his 2009 date is political suicide. Not only will he have to fight the conservatives but he will have to fight half of his own party while doing it. Dion isn’t a bad guy at the end of the day but he really isn’t doing the Lib’s any favours as party leader. His political inexperience is showing more and more every day.

How is the report a compromise by Harper? He comissioned it. If anything he would have been wrong to not accept its findings as his plan let alone anybody else.

As for it being political suicide I can't see how you could possibly think that. The Liberals that did vote for the extension were voting to keep troops in the country not simply letting the mission continue as is.

In addition you seem to forget that Harper is the person telling us that he will withdraw the troops should NATO not come through with the support requested. Looks like he is telling everybody "do this or else" while the Liberals are willing to remain in country providing some role even if NATO doesn't come through.

I favour leaving the whole damn country to the Afghan people to sort it out themselves but at least the Libs have the Afghans being forced into standing on their own 2 feet.

I don't believe that the Liberal MPS will revolt over not accepting Manley as is not do I think Liberal supporters will shift their support to the CPC, especially since most of the cons on this forum can us anti-military US hating leftard Libranos. I know I won't.

Quite frankly this is Harpers fuck up because it was his responsibility to make the neccessary alterations to present a plan that Dion would accept. He had to do it with the budget to get NDP support just as Martin had to continually offer deals to win support for all his legislation during his tenure as a minority PM. Harper didn't. He is not coming out looking like roses to anybody accept people who where never going to vote Liberal anyway.

Lets see whether Harper will adjust his stance or whether he will make Manley a confidence motion and let the chips fall where they may.

[ridenrain]

Dion is sticking to a position that all experts are telling him is impossible. You can't expect to stay out of the fight when you're in a combat zone. That's as stupid as being a Canadian AND a Frenchman.

[dino_bobba_renno]

DerbyX DerbyX:

dino_bobba_renno dino_bobba_renno:

Derb, Harper has all ready compromised a bit by accepting the findings of the report. Should he go further by extending an olive branch to Dion and giving into some concessions? Ya maybe but the point here is he doesn’t have to. He’s holding all the cards. For Dion to hold fast to his 2009 date is political suicide. Not only will he have to fight the conservatives but he will have to fight half of his own party while doing it. Dion isn’t a bad guy at the end of the day but he really isn’t doing the Lib’s any favours as party leader. His political inexperience is showing more and more every day.

How is the report a compromise by Harper? He comissioned it. If anything he would have been wrong to not accept its findings as his plan let alone anybody else.

As for it being political suicide I can't see how you could possibly think that. The Liberals that did vote for the extension were voting to keep troops in the country not simply letting the mission continue as is.

In addition you seem to forget that Harper is the person telling us that he will withdraw the troops should NATO not come through with the support requested. Looks like he is telling everybody "do this or else" while the Liberals are willing to remain in country providing some role even if NATO doesn't come through.

I favour leaving the whole damn country to the Afghan people to sort it out themselves but at least the Libs have the Afghans being forced into standing on their own 2 feet.

I don't believe that the Liberal MPS will revolt over not accepting Manley as is not do I think Liberal supporters will shift their support to the CPC, especially since most of the cons on this forum can us anti-military US hating leftard Libranos. I know I won't.

Quite frankly this is Harpers fuck up because it was his responsibility to make the neccessary alterations to present a plan that Dion would accept. He had to do it with the budget to get NDP support just as Martin had to continually offer deals to win support for all his legislation during his tenure as a minority PM. Harper didn't. He is not coming out looking like roses to anybody accept people who where never going to vote Liberal anyway.

Lets see whether Harper will adjust his stance or whether he will make Manley a confidence motion and let the chips fall where they may.

You know what Derb, you’ve put forward a lot of good points over the last few posts and I’ll even admit that I agree with you on a few of them ( I have to say I like this side of you much better, no irate responses and name calling, well for the most part). However there are a couple that you won’t change my mind on. Number one namely being that it is a good idea for the Liberals to push an election on the issue of Afghanistan. They are simply not ready to go to the poles over such a highly consensus issue. Dion is just catching his wind lately after a few years of disorganization (or in fighting) within his own party but he hasn’t built up the strength yet to go into an election yet. The Liberals, while more united now then they have been over the past few years, are to the average observer they are still fairly divided particularly on this issue. Going into an election on such a naturally divisive issue has the chance of fracturing the party further or for that matter even creating the appearance of a fracture which is just as bad. While I can see your point on the Manley report, to most average Canadians it will be seen as a fairly non-partisan document despite the fact that the Conservatives commissioned it. All they will see is the fact that the head of the panel was a Liberal regardless of Manley’s views prior to it. It will be hard to fight on a platform that is based on rejecting one of the key recommendations of that report, extending the combat mission, when it was a very well respected member of their own party who took part in creating it. You may see things differently but I’m not talking about you voting, I’m talking about the average Canadian Joe who can’t be bothered to even watch the news most nights.

I know you seem to think Harper bares the blame if an election is sprung over this issue but what’s with this 2009 deadline? If Dion really wanted to spin this he could have bounced back with a counter proposal and made Harper look the fool. He could have accept 2011 or laid down terms for a yearly review or something and hit the TV news denouncing Harper as inflexible and uncompromising but he didn’t.

I don’t know but pushing an election over this doesn’t seem like a very smart move on Dion’s part but I could be wrong.

[Scape]

dino_bobba_renno dino_bobba_renno:

While I can see your point on the Manley report, to most average Canadians it will be seen as a fairly non-partisan document despite the fact that the Conservatives commissioned it. ...
You may see things differently but I’m not talking about you voting, I’m talking about the average Canadian Joe who can’t be bothered to even watch the news most nights.

I call BS. Sorry Derb but I have to pipe in.

You mean to say that joe six pack, most who couldn't even tell you the name of the current liberal leader, is going to know who the fuck Manley is? Sorry, that shit don't fly. 1st they won't care about any report anyway and 2nd if their eyes haven't glazed over and turned the channel already will have already made up their minds on the issue of in or out. So saying some report to parliament is going to have any impact on their opinion is nothing but hyperbole.