[saga]

I will say again, though mcboy
VERY well written, and the history parts, etc.

Your writing only deteriorates when you descend into the vernacular of whitewashing.

You write the truth better.

[saga]

Today I learned that a Facist is someone who is emotional and does not heed reason or rational thought. They are the type of person you will never win an arguement with because no matter what facts you bring to bare, their actions are dictated and driven by their own emotional involvement. Therefore, I submit that due to saga being incapable of being persauded by reason, that she is a Facist. Let her chew on that a while.


EXCUSE ME THEMASTA ... did you say something reasonable and I missed it?

[saga]

Vegina! dahling!

How good of you to FINALLY acknowledge my COMPLAINT!

There are waaaayyyy too many injun chasers in your native issues forum, dear!

It's just a little politically incorrect ... tsk tsk!

Now I have a suggestion ... HOW ABOUT A SPECIAL GRANNYSAGA THREAD!! Then all the little neanderthals can duke it out with me, vent their little prejudices,.
and then get fucking back on the job with their colleagues who might just happen to be FBI's !!!!!

ya twits

ya can't be racists anymore!

passe
so yesterday

and it would be good if ya would all stop being the governments' suckers too.

respect yourself.

... and that's the first installment of grannysaga's rants

next rant ... all the little white girls out in the field behind DCE ... with ....
UknowWHOOO-OOO !!!

(am I in?);)

[saga]

[saga]

ya ... right ... I'm starting a flame war over racial issues ... I'm a white on white racist.

I am daring to expose whitewashing of events, geared to slam the Haudenosaunee Six Nations.

Well watch the news, folks.

Because they are right.

Judge Marshall is a donkey.

And it is their land.

The OPP have a crappy but well paid (I understand) job there now, watching out for that one Caledonia resident who might lose it.
Thanks for that.

ps vegina! your side rails aren't working!!

sigh

kids ... can't even keep a granny in jail!
what the heck is happening to law enforcement today ... did ya ever think you ever think you did all that training so you could ... kick the women ... throw granny in jail ... let her fall out of bed and noooooobody cares!
:);)

It's been a slice!

[HyperionTheEvil]

Saga Saga:

The usual drivel

Indians and thier illegal blockades. Beating up retired people and trying to kill police officers.

And they ask for common sense?

Thats like asking the Taliban to just please knock it off.

When indians respect the rule of law, and stop being thier own worst enemy is when thier lives will improve

[grainfedprairieboy]

Lets get a few things straight:

Outside of Alberta, there is no such thing as Property Rights. According to the Canadian government - "the inclusion of property rights protection in the Charter would mean that the government could not disregard these rights unless it could justify its actions and satisfy the onus set forth in s. 1 of the Charter" (http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection-R ... p268-e.htm).

So if Canadians can only own property by the grace of the government of the day, then non-Canadians such as natives should also be denied by extension.

Second, so called natives living in southern Ontario or Queerbec are about as "Indian" as United Church Pastors are Christian. This is about greed, power and the classic Canadianism of "what's in it for me?"

Third. Natives are NOT enforcing a court ruling that the police have failed to execute. They are acting illegally and the government is bordering on treason by allowing self-declared foreign nationals to occupy Canadian soil in the interests of a foreign government. This is an act of war and if Canada were a real country these people would be rounded up and imprisoned, shot or both.

Fourth. Canadian police forces are unable to cope with any group of people prepared to defy their authority. We have a military, use it. I remember at Clayoquat when the police would come to arrest us each morning. They would arrive on buses and bellow into loud speakers that those who wanted to be arrested today get on this bus or those who had been arrested before get on that bus or those not planning on getting arrested today this bus will take you to back to the peace camp. Organised anarchy, only in Canada I thought. For the record I was there to protest the Victoria judge making it illegal to protest and not for the logging of the sound, even though I thought that was in poor taste.

[saga]

I’m writing this letter in order to answer the questions posed by Garry Horsnell on Sep 11, 2006 regarding the Caledonia land dispute.

To have a better understanding of the matter we must start at the beginning. I’ll convey it in a somewhat contracted version.

When Europeans first made contact with the Five Nations (later to become Six Nations) we extended our friendship and hospitality to them. With treaties known as the Covenant Chain and the Two Row Wampum we laid down the foundation of how our relationship with each other would always be. The Two Row Wampum which includes the Covenant Chain is like this:

You say that, “you are like our father and we are like your son.” We say, “We will not be like father and son, but like brothers.” This wampum belt confirms our words. These two rows will symbolize two paths or vessels, traveling down the same river side by side. One, a canoe for the Onkwehonwe people, our laws, our customs and our ways. The other, a ship for the European people and their laws, their customs and their ways. Neither of us will make compulsory laws or interfere in the internal affairs of the other. Neither of us will try to steer the other’s vessel. By accepting this belt, you confirm these agreements of which we welcome you to our land. We shall also come together from time to time to remember and reaffirm our words of this sacred covenant.

Due to the European wars that extended over here in North America between the French and the English we were compelled to choose sides. We became allies to the British in 1664 as we had been at war with the French and their allies since July, 29, 1608 when Samuel De Champlain attacked one of our villages and killed two of our chiefs wounding another at Ticonderoga (Crown Point, New York).

With the help of the (now) Six Nations the British defeated the French on the Plains of Abraham (Quebec City) in 1763. The Royal Proclamation was drawn up by the British claiming sovereignty over the French territory as the French conceded their sovereignty to King George III and Britain at the Plains of Abraham. The Royal Proclamation also set out the boundary lines which were to be Indian Territory. These boundaries extended from the southern portion of Rupert’s Land to the northern part of Florida, from the western edge of the Thirteen Colonies (excluding Six Nations Territory in New York) to the old (original) territory of Louisiana. The Proclamation goes on to state that the Indians are NOT to be molested or disturbed in their territory. All squatters must remove themselves from Indian Territory and CANNOT purchase any land unless it is first purchased by the Crown.

The Royal Proclamation was to be the catalyst that actually sparked the American Revolutionary War. European settlers were extremely angered by the Proclamation holding them back from westward expansion. When the war ignited the Confederacy came to consensus that they would remain neutral. Joseph Brant had already given his word to King George III that the Six Nations would remain allied to the British when he was in England in return for land promises. When he returned he managed to obtain the support of predominantly Mohawk and Seneca (as well as many from the other four Nations) warriors to fight for the British. It was predominantly Oneida and Tuscarora (as well as some from the other four Nations) that fought for the Rebels (Americans).

The British lost the war and through the Treaty of Paris 1783 the Border as it is known today was established. Under the Jay Treaty 1794 it is made clear that the border exists between the Subjects of Great Britain and the Citizens of the United States NOT to the Indians dwelling on either side. The Haldimand Proclamation 1784 was written and proclaimed giving us six miles deep on each side of the Grand River from its mouth to its source for them and their posterity to enjoy forever. This was in compensation of our original territories in New York State that we lost assisting the British in their war. The location of the Haldimand tract was to play a strategic role during the War of 1812.

In 1812 the Americans under President James Madison invaded Canada. The Grand River Six Nations in keeping with the time honored Two Row Wampum as allies again fought with the British. Although most people know who Tecumseh was very few know the name John Norton or Teyoninhokarawen. He was the War Chief of the Six Nations during the War of 1812. While Tecumseh performed many heroic feats he was killed on October, 5, 1813 within the first year of the war. His western Nations scattered to evade death and many sought refuge at Grand River. The Grand River Six Nations, Kahnawake, Kanesatake and Akwesasne Mohawks fought throughout the entire war. The last battle fought by the Americans in the war was at the Grand River. On November, 6, 1814 General Duncan McArthur planned to raid the Six Nations at Grand River and was repelled back to Michigan burning Malcolm’s Mills in Oakland and defeating the Canadian militia on the way. On December, 24, 1814 the Treaty of Ghent was signed between the British and the Americans putting an end to the war. In fact had it not been for the Grand River Six Nations, Kahnawake, Kanesatake and Akwesasne Mohawks there would be no Canada and Canada would be the fifty-first state of the U.S.


Article the Ninth states:

The United States of America engage to put an end immediately after the Ratification of the present Treaty to hostilities with all the Tribes or Nations of Indians with whom they may be at war at the time of such Ratification, and forthwith to restore to such Tribes or Nations respectively all the possessions, rights, and privileges which they may have enjoyed or been entitled to in one thousand eight hundred and eleven previous to such hostilities. Provided always that such Tribes or Nations shall agree to desist from all hostilities against the United States of America, their Citizens, and Subjects upon the Ratification of the present Treaty being notified to such Tribes or Nations, and shall so desist accordingly. And His Britannic Majesty engages on his part to put an end immediately after the Ratification of the present Treaty to hostilities with all the Tribes or Nations of Indians with whom He may be at war at the time of such Ratification, and forthwith to restore to such Tribes or Nations respectively all the possessions, rights, and privileges, which they may have enjoyed or been entitled to in one thousand eight hundred and eleven previous to such hostilities. Provided always that such Tribes or Nations shall agree to desist from all hostilities against His Britannic Majesty and His Subjects upon the Ratification of the present Treaty being notified to such Tribes or Nations, and shall so desist accordingly.

Note that again it refers to British Subjects, American Citizens and Indians. Every Treaty the British ever made with Nations it was at war with retains the principals as first set out by the Covenant Chain and the Two Row Wampum. We are NOT Subjects of Great Britain or Citizens of the United States or Canada! We are ALLIES!

In Brantford near Her Majesty’s Chapel on the site that was once the Mohawk village is a Plaque erected by the Ontario Historical Foundation, an agency of the Government of Ontario that reads:

Allies of the British during the American War of independence, the Six Nations Iroquois received extensive lands along the Grand River in 1784. Mohawks, led by Joseph Brant, established a village of some 400 individuals here by 1788. The community was situated at an important crossing point on the river (:Brant's Ford") and prospered as a resting place for travellers on the "Detroit path", a trail linking the Niagara and Detroit Rivers. Increasingly European settlers encroached on Six Nations' lands. In 1841 the government moved the Grand River Iroquois to a section of their land south of the river. Of the Mohawk Village, only the chapel remains.

Notice that it says; “Increasingly European settlers encroached on Six Nations' lands. In 1841 the government moved the Grand River Iroquois to a section of their land south of the river.” The operative words here are encroached and their land. It DOES NOT say ceded, surrendered or Crown land! Notice also the date 1841.


The Haldimand tract has been a thorn in the government’s side since the 1790s. Like the Royal Proclamation of 1763 it has angered many a settler, land speculator and businessman by its designation of “Indian Territory.” While some lots on the tract were legally sold or leased the majority of the tract was wrongfully taken. Through various Indian Agents the likes of William Clause and Samuel P. Jarvis parcels of our land was sold without consent or compensation and Six Nations money was misappropriated. The Federal government does not wish to settle this or any other dispute within the Haldimand tract as they know that they are in error. It is their utmost desire that each of our successive generations simply forgets about it while delaying their accountability which is the reason why it takes so long to settle.

As I mentioned earlier the Haldimand Tract was purchased specifically to compensate us for the loss of our land in New York State at the close of the American Revolutionary War. It is Six Nations Territory not British or Canadian. Therefore Canadian law does not apply to us on our own territory. Our law applies to us and anyone else within our boundaries. Since the “Douglas Creek Estates” is within our territory we are occupying it and it is at our discretion who we’ll allow on the site.

The provincial government had no legal right to purchase the site more so with it being under dispute. Of course we know how adept the government is when it comes to following their “rule of law”. It is quite obvious that they wouldn’t have made the purchase if there was no legitimate claim. Although the province has purchased the land they still don’t own it. The move to purchase was based on appeasing the Canadian public while they continue their stall tactics. The O.P.P. is controlling the area they are there to keep the peace. They have no jurisdiction to remove us from our own land.

The money question is well founded. It would be a lot better to spend it on resolving the issue rather than to stall it only having to come clean and spending even more in the future.

The Department of Indian Affairs has no jurisdiction over us. It is a Canadian domestic entity and is not equipped nor mandated to deal on a Nation to Nation level. The Governor General is still the Crown’s representative in Canada and should be having dialogue with us concerning this issue. The land should not have been sold period. It still belongs to us.

The government on all levels is playing “pass the buck” in order to stall and confuse the public. For them to come to resolution means they’ll need to have honor. That means they’ll have to admit their wrongdoing and injustice. If they do that they’ll incriminate themselves. Then they’ll have to make restitution for their actions and those of their predecessors.

Individuals that are acting out of frustration in an inappropriate manner are reprimanded with under our system by our people. Our fight is with the government however reasons unknown some residents of Caledonia saw fit to make it their fight with us. I can’t understand how these people can allege that they are “concerned about the safety of themselves and their children” and are apparently being held “hostage”. If they are held hostage how is it that they seem to have the accessibility to make it to the site to hold their rallies? Why would they want to go near the site if they are so worried about their safety?

There are many Caledonians that support us. Some of them have even been threatened and mistreated by their fellow residents for supporting us. As for the Parliament Hill idea, we’re on our own land and not bothering anyone. On a side note, Parliament Hill sits on disputed Ojibwa land!

We know all to well how the list could go on, and on and on. We’ve been composing our list for the last five hundred years or so.

Nia:wen Kowa,

Okwaho
Six Nations Grand River Territory
_________________

[HyperionTheEvil]

$1:

I’m writing this letter in order to answer the questions posed by Garry Horsnell on Sep 11, 2006 regarding the Caledonia land dispute.

Just give us the money white-man


Nia:wen Kowa,

Okwaho
Six Nations Grand River Territory
_________________

[saga]

"Shock" Federal Court ruling gives aborigines native title over Perth, Australia.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/st ... 02,00.html

[saga]

MURDERED ... Where is she buried?
http://www.turtleisland.org/resources/church4.gif

[saga]

Indians and thier illegal blockades.

Beating up retired people and trying to kill police officers.
....................
saga
LIES LIES! Where do you get your information? From the NEWSpaper?? They only print what sells!! Truth has nothing to do with it!

They never laid a hand on the old racist filthspewing couple, who swerved to try to hit (or should I say tried to murder?) two Six Nations men as the old couple sped out of the DCE.

They never touched the officer, just swerved near him ... attempted murder? I don't think so. Charge has already been reduced to something like "negligence causing fright".
......................................
And they ask for common sense?

Thats like asking the Taliban to just please knock it off.

When indians respect the rule of law, and stop being thier own worst enemy is when thier lives will improve
..........................................
saga

THE RULE OF LAW IN CANADA IS that they have aboriginal title and aboriginal rights. Since the government is not implementing ITS OWN LAWS, Indigenous people are forced to reclaim land which is about to be desecrated. The Haudenosaunee Six Nations people are well within the rule of law. It is Canada that is outside the law.

Defending our country's right to maintain possession of stolen property ... is not a noble calling.

The feds will always use the police as patsy's to try to scare off aboriginal reclaimers.

Don't be suckers.
YOU WERE USED for illegal purposes.

[saga]

Lets get a few things straight:

Outside of Alberta, there is no such thing as Property Rights. According to the Canadian government - "the inclusion of property rights protection in the Charter would mean that the government could not disregard these rights unless it could justify its actions and satisfy the onus set forth in s. 1 of the Charter" (http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection-R ... p268-e.htm).

So if Canadians can only own property by the grace of the government of the day, then non-Canadians such as natives should also be denied by extension.
..................
That's rather weird reasoning ... and wrong. Aboriginal title and aboriginal rights are granted by the Constitution of Canada. That's why we have an Indian Claims Commission. That's why the federal and provincial governments are now negotiating with Six Nations ... too see how much we owe them for the settled areas of the Haldimand tract, and what lands will remain in their hands ... like the DCE.
.........................
Second, so called natives living in southern Ontario or Queerbec are about as "Indian" as United Church Pastors are Christian. This is about greed, power and the classic Canadianism of "what's in it for me?"
..........................
You speak only for yourself.

Traditional governance (participatory democracy) and traditional spirituality are very much alive and thriving at Six Nations, and very adaptable to the modern world.
...............
Third. Natives are NOT enforcing a court ruling that the police have failed to execute. They are acting illegally and the government is bordering on treason by allowing self-declared foreign nationals to occupy Canadian soil in the interests of a foreign government. This is an act of war and if Canada were a real country these people would be rounded up and imprisoned, shot or both.
..............
saga
What does one say to blatant idiocy?
These are not exactly new ideas, you know.
We already tried to exterminate them.
It didn't work, and now the UN has us on its watch list. Heck ... let a few goofs like you loose and we could soon be one of those countries where UN peacekeepers have to go in ... now wouldn't THAT be ironical!
...........................
adian police forces are unable to cope with any group of people prepared to defy their authority. We have a military, use it. I remember at Clayoquat when the police would come to arrest us each morning. They would arrive on buses and bellow into loud speakers that those who wanted to be arrested today get on this bus or those who had been arrested before get on that bus or those not planning on getting arrested today this bus will take you to back to the peace camp. Organised anarchy, only in Canada I thought. For the record I was there to protest the Victoria judge making it illegal to protest and not for the logging of the sound, even though I thought that was in poor taste.
................

The government is not in a position to use the military. Currently the Haudenosaunee people are on the land legally. The Judge's injunction has been stayed, and the governments of Ontario and Canada are at the table negotiating the Haudenosaunee's valid claims..

[saga]

... and the difference between Caledonia and Clayoquot is what?

OHH ... I remember!

There were WHITE protestors at Clayoquot too!

What a difference that makes!!

[PJB]

Interesting postings. Some rational and some irrational. Some racist and some realist.

Saga I commend you for standing up for what you believe in and that you, at most times, respect others beliefs.

This is an important discussion as these types of disputes are escallating and until we can find some sort of middle ground or viable way to settle these claims to the betterment of all parties these disputes are going to continue.