[Thanos]

At this stage the pollution needs to be regarded as a crisis. Ignore both the sustainability argument as well as tinkering with nonsensical ways to get a private profit out of it. Destroy as much of it as possible via incineration in the short-term, like say a ten-year program, then move on to recycling after the bulk of it has been disposed of. In the meantime force the plastics packaging industry to change how they're doing things.

No point goofing around with pie-in-the-sky options, especially the recycling chimera, in the face of an immediate environmental catastrophe. If anything the amount of plastic blowing around in the wind and ending up in the waterways has gotten worse over the last decade due to the insistence on recycling as the only option. Just bite the damn bullet and opt for destruction of the stuff until a more comprehensive method of clean disposal can be put into place.

[DrCaleb]

llama66 llama66:

Any government that can vote itself a raise is not beholden to the people.

It's social engineering and profiting off addiction. Many who smoke or drink are addicted, do the monies collected go to funding services that can help rehabilitate with said addiction or does the money go to the general coffers?

Same can be said of lottery and gambling. Most of it goes into general revenue, but I know Alberta does fund some addiction programs, and AADAC.

The only tax I know of that is returned to the people, is the Federal Carbon Tax.

[llama66]

Prevention (by a means other than taxing the shit out of our selves) is what we should be looking at, unless of course, taxing me will magically stop plastic pollution on the Niger river.

Create tech that allows plastic to break down completely (no microbeads) or create a cheap plastic-like material that completely breaks down quickly if it gets into the wild.

PLA plastic is a good start.... but we need more and better Bio-plastics.

[llama66]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

llama66 llama66:

Any government that can vote itself a raise is not beholden to the people.

It's social engineering and profiting off addiction. Many who smoke or drink are addicted, do the monies collected go to funding services that can help rehabilitate with said addiction or does the money go to the general coffers?

Same can be said of lottery and gambling. Most of it goes into general revenue, but I know Alberta does fund some addiction programs, and AADAC.

The only tax I know of that is returned to the people, is the Federal Carbon Tax.

So why charge it in the first place?

[DrCaleb]

Thanos Thanos:

At this stage the pollution needs to be regarded as a crisis. Ignore both the sustainability argument as well as tinkering with nonsensical ways to get a private profit out of it. Destroy as much of it as possible via incineration in the short-term, like say a ten-year program, then move on to recycling after the bulk of it has been disposed of. In the meantime force the plastics packaging industry to change how they're doing things.

No point goofing around with pie-in-the-sky options, especially the recycling chimera, in the face of an immediate environmental catastrophe. If anything the amount of plastic blowing around in the wind and ending up in the waterways has gotten worse over the last decade due to the insistence on recycling as the only option. Just bite the damn bullet and opt for destruction of the stuff until a more comprehensive method of clean disposal can be put into place.

Not disagreeing with you in general, just that any solution needs a certain amount of buy in from the public, and needs a solution that works for the consumer.

We can ban plastic bags of salad, and individually blister packed apples - but would the consumer go for bringing their own containers for bulk items? Bread?

Until consumer demand changes, there has to be a bit of transition period.

[llama66]

Hemp packaging?

[DrCaleb]

llama66 llama66:

Prevention (by a means other than taxing the shit out of our selves) is what we should be looking at, unless of course, taxing me will magically stop plastic pollution on the Niger river.

'Elbonians' don't generate the plastic, it gets collected from our blue bins, sent to the US, sold as "recyclable" and ends up on Elbonian shores full of contamination and mixed with non-recyclable plastics such that it's useless. Then it gets dumped in landfills, and blows into the South Elbonian river and out to feed the whales and dolphins.

llama66 llama66:

Create tech that allows plastic to break down completely (no microbeads) or create a cheap plastic-like material that completely breaks down quickly if it gets into the wild.

Not possible. It's the nature of plastic, that it's not biodegradable.

llama66 llama66:

PLA plastic is a good start.... but we need more and better Bio-plastics.

No argument from me.

llama66 llama66:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

The only tax I know of that is returned to the people, is the Federal Carbon Tax.

So why charge it in the first place?

To reduce consumption.

[DrCaleb]

llama66 llama66:

Hemp packaging?

I'd go for glass, or the kind of recyclable plastics that pop and water containers are made from - with an applicable recycling fee like other drink containers. Glass is energy intensive, but even contaminated glass can be recycled, unlike paper or plastic.

[llama66]

Glass Bread containers? Interesting.

[DrCaleb]

llama66 llama66:

Glass Bread containers? Interesting.

Back in the old days, we just used paper.

But it's tough to buy bulk olives in a paper container.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

But how much of that is a result of higher taxes as opposed to education and increased awareness of the dangers of smoking?

In 1986 gasoline was around $5 a gallon the UK. Today's it's around $10 a gallon and there's more cars than ever on Britain's roads and highways.

Taxes on alcohol keep going up. Has that slowed down the alcohol consumption rate?

Ask someone who smokes if they can handle the increase of the price of a pack. Ask someone who used to smoke if it was a factor in their decision to quit.

The vast majority of people I know who quit smoking did so for health reasons, not taxes. There's also significant numbers of smokers who switched to Native smokes to avoid the excess taxes. That's revenue the govt isn't making from tobacco.

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Ask someone in the UK if they could afford to drive big V8 pickups and SUVs like we do here. Look at the trend of putting V6s and 4's in pickups. And Mustangs.

There is no trend that way. Pickups in the UK are not really a big seller. They prefer panel vans. And most of the pickups that are sold in the UK are NOT from the US makers. You'll also find that most of those pickups are purchased for business purposes, not as personal transport. I can also tell you for a FACT that the members of London's Mustang club have NOT put smaller engines in their Mustangs. Besides, there's been LOTS of Mustangs on North American roads with V6s. Hell, when those crappy Mustang IIs came out I don't think they even had a V8 option.

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Look up statistics on alcohol related diseases.

And how exactly will that prove reduced alcohol consumption due to taxation?

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Look at the rate of return on drink bottles and cans.

And then, tell me a tax on recyclable plastic won't result in plastic actually being returned for recycling instead of put in landfills.

Actually, despite picking the one example that does work, it doesn't really work for the reasons you may think. Years ago I used to buy jugs of milk from Beckers. There was a 25 cent deposit on the jugs. SO for example milk was $3.00 and with the deposit, $3.25. But I only ever effectively paid it once. Because since I have to go back there to buy milk again, I might as well take my empty jug with me. Doing so my milk would ring up at $3.00 instead of $3.25.

It's true that jurisdictions that have a return for deposit have a much higher recycling rate than jurisdictions using the blue box program or something similar. And that's probably because of the headache with recycling. Oh, this kind of plastic doesn't go with that kind of plastic. This has to be separated from that and blah blah blah. Next thing you know you need at least a half dozen blue boxes just to keep your shit separated.

Let me give an example of what I mean. Where I live we have 2 household garbage dumpsters, a smaller dumpster just for cardboard and a blue bin each for paper, cans, glass bottles, and plastic bottles. And of course you're also expected to rinse/wash out those cans and bottles before chucking them.
It's no wonder return for deposit has a higher recycling rate than the blue box programs.

[N_Fiddledog]

llama66 llama66:

Create tech that allows plastic to break down completely (no microbeads) or create a cheap plastic-like material that completely breaks down quickly if it gets into the wild.

I wonder how close they are to a microbe/enzyme/bacteria that will eat plastic straws on a commercial scale. I remember them bragging a couple years ago how they had something like that, that would eat plastic bottles.

https://www.sciencealert.com/new-plasti ... revolution

Would it be scary to have those little guys lost in the wild though? Like it mutates and starts eating everybody's phones, computers and television sets. The plastic off electric wires.

[llama66]

So making things more expensive, and then giving money back will somehow, magically reduce consumption? What kind of ass-backwards pageantry is that?

[N_Fiddledog]

llama66 llama66:

So making things more expensive, and then giving money back will somehow, magically reduce consumption? What kind of ass-backwards pageantry is that?

You're not talking to me are you?

Because I was imagining self-replicating, plastic eating microbes in a controlled dumping environment. What expense? We'd be talking free market solution.

[DrCaleb]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

But how much of that is a result of higher taxes as opposed to education and increased awareness of the dangers of smoking?

In 1986 gasoline was around $5 a gallon the UK. Today's it's around $10 a gallon and there's more cars than ever on Britain's roads and highways.

Taxes on alcohol keep going up. Has that slowed down the alcohol consumption rate?

Ask someone who smokes if they can handle the increase of the price of a pack. Ask someone who used to smoke if it was a factor in their decision to quit.

The vast majority of people I know who quit smoking did so for health reasons, not taxes. There's also significant numbers of smokers who switched to Native smokes to avoid the excess taxes. That's revenue the govt isn't making from tobacco.

Read my response again.

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Ask someone in the UK if they could afford to drive big V8 pickups and SUVs like we do here. Look at the trend of putting V6s and 4's in pickups. And Mustangs.

There is no trend that way.

The entry level engine for both the Mustang and Ranger are the same 2.3l 4 cylinder engine in my Focus.

https://www.ford.ca/cars/mustang/models ... -fastback/

https://www.ford.ca/trucks/ranger/models/ranger-xl/

https://www.ford.ca/cars/focus/models/focus-st/

The F-150 entry level engine is a V6.

https://www.ford.ca/trucks/f150/models/f150-xl/

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Look up statistics on alcohol related diseases.

And how exactly will that prove reduced alcohol consumption due to taxation?

The same way that not smoking reduces the risk of smoking related death.