[shockedcanadian]

No Canadian should be talking about social policies when we are exploring the possibility of a free trade agreement with one of the most serial abuser of human rights in the world in China. Oh, and head to Beijing, look up and try to find the sun.

Maybe Canada shares a more similar social policy (and controlled economy) to the nation of China than we think.

[CharlesAnthony]

My heart bleeds for all of the poor people who own Bombardier and or Boeing stocks. They need more public sympathy and tax-payer support.

[BartSimpson]

CharlesAnthony CharlesAnthony:

My heart bleeds for all of the poor people who own Bombardier and or Boeing stocks. They need more public sympathy and tax-payer support.

Looks like Trump's new tax plan is going to slash and eliminate subsidies across the board.

[Freakinoldguy]

Hey, Trudeau's a globalist so maybe he intends to help the Boeing Corporation get first dibs on purchasing Bumbardier by screwing them over with all these taxpayer funded loans.

[Coach85]

https://globalnews.ca/news/3773916/bomb ... subsidies/

Bombardier got subsidies? Boeing received $64B from the U.S. government

[BeaverFever]

I like Bombardier but It's kind of hard to argue that Bombardier doesn't get subsidies, it's always getting various government handouts, bailouts, loans etc.

And that's aside from all the government contracts like Toronto streetcars that they seriously under-deliver and go way over budget with very little consequence.

Yeah Boeing, Lockheed Martin, the rest are no better. The entire aerospace and defence industries rely on milking the public tit for every last drop when they're not taking handouts from the government, they're landing massive public contracts that never come in on time, on budget, or on spec.

[herbie]

No we're going to buy 200 of those planes and reclassify them as "bombers". That'll payback the loans and stabilize Bombardier. Then Delta can buy 100 and they won't be subsidized..

[rickc]

It sounds like the battle royal of the shakedown artists to me. They are both pretty sleazy. I would give the crown to Bombardier. They love waving the Canadian flag when they are passing the plate looking for handouts. Canada just HAS to save a Canadian company, right? The ink on the check does not get a chance to dry before Bombardier starts closing plants in Canada, and moving operations offshore. Basically Canadian taxpayers are financing jobs for people in other countries. Bombardier has successfully pulled this off many times. Why stop? As long as the gravy train keeps rolling, why not ride it as long as you can?

Boeing usually does not have to wave the flag to get their way. They just bring the hammer down and make threats. They put the squeeze on Washington state and the machinist union. They tell them flat out that they will move to another state if they don't get their way. What is Washington state going to do? You have heard of a mill town right? Washington state is basically one big mill town. They cannot afford to lose all those good paying jobs to another state. What are the union members going to do? Are they going to start making one tenth of what they are making now by cutting trees for a living? I think not. At least Boeing keeps their word after the shakedown. They kept production of the 777x in Washington state. The payoff worked. The same cannot be said for Bombardier.

http://business.financialpost.com/opini ... ort-boeing
These deals get complicated. This article has an interesting paragraph about how off shore suppliers have to offset purchase by the Canadian government with equivilent spending in Canada. That sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me. I never see facts like that mentioned in the NAFTA threads anywhere. Does the U.S. have any deals like this? So basically if Canada does not spend billions buying the super hornets, than Boeing will not spend the equivalent amount in Canada. Does Canada have that deal with everyone? Boeing has dedicated plants in Canada to offset the Canadian government spending. Boeing created 9500 jobs in Canada. Bombardier has thousands of jobs in the states. Its not so easy to wave the flag and try to hometown it. Sometimes the foreign company provides even more jobs than the hometown guy. You have to look at the big picture and tiptoe through the bullshit.

[bootlegga]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Followed by massive employment surge in the US

FTFY.

NAFTA was not a good deal for the US and I'll be happy when it's undone. It was also following in the footsteps of the European Common Market in that the leftists and the free trader capitalists kept using it as a starting point for a common North American currency (remember the Amero?), Deep Integration, and their proposed North American Union.

No thanks.

The delusion is strong in this one, Master!

[bootlegga]

rickc rickc:

It sounds like the battle royal of the shakedown artists to me. They are both pretty sleazy. I would give the crown to Bombardier. They love waving the Canadian flag when they are passing the plate looking for handouts. Canada just HAS to save a Canadian company, right? The ink on the check does not get a chance to dry before Bombardier starts closing plants in Canada, and moving operations offshore. Basically Canadian taxpayers are financing jobs for people in other countries. Bombardier has successfully pulled this off many times. Why stop? As long as the gravy train keeps rolling, why not ride it as long as you can?

Boeing usually does not have to wave the flag to get their way. They just bring the hammer down and make threats. They put the squeeze on Washington state and the machinist union. They tell them flat out that they will move to another state if they don't get their way. What is Washington state going to do? You have heard of a mill town right? Washington state is basically one big mill town. They cannot afford to lose all those good paying jobs to another state. What are the union members going to do? Are they going to start making one tenth of what they are making now by cutting trees for a living? I think not. At least Boeing keeps their word after the shakedown. They kept production of the 777x in Washington state. The payoff worked. The same cannot be said for Bombardier.

http://business.financialpost.com/opini ... ort-boeing
These deals get complicated. This article has an interesting paragraph about how off shore suppliers have to offset purchase by the Canadian government with equivilent spending in Canada. That sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me. I never see facts like that mentioned in the NAFTA threads anywhere. Does the U.S. have any deals like this? So basically if Canada does not spend billions buying the super hornets, than Boeing will not spend the equivalent amount in Canada. Does Canada have that deal with everyone? Boeing has dedicated plants in Canada to offset the Canadian government spending. Boeing created 9500 jobs in Canada. Bombardier has thousands of jobs in the states. Its not so easy to wave the flag and try to hometown it. Sometimes the foreign company provides even more jobs than the hometown guy. You have to look at the big picture and tiptoe through the bullshit.

Boeing doesn't wave the flag? You sound even more delusional than Bart is...Boeing would raise a holy shitstorm if the American military ever bought a major weapons platform from a European bidder instead of an American one. Heck, they whine when they lose out to Lockheed!

Neither company is innocent of getting subsidies, but the fact is that Boeing didn't even bother to bid on the contract that they filed a complaint about.

And if you had an inkling of Canadian history, you know that yes, our government has to stand up for Canadian companies - otherwise we'll have the same brain drain in the aviation industry we had 60 years ago when Diefenbaker scrapped the Arrow.

Frankly, it's time for Canada to just pony up and buy the Eurofighter Typhoon instead of ANY American plane. It might cost a bit more, but it better meets our needs of a twin-engine mult-role aircraft. The Super Hornet is a slight upgrade over the CF-18 and the F-35 is a POS that isn't suited to our needs. The only American plane that meets our true needs is the F-22 Raptor, and the US has refused to export it to any ally.

[BartSimpson]

bootlegga bootlegga:

The only American plane that meets our true needs is the F-22 Raptor, and the US has refused to export it to any ally.

That might change.

The Pentagon is currently studying restarting production (which was authorized in the FY2017-2018 budget) of the F-22 and this would also include provisions for an export version.

[rickc]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Boeing doesn't wave the flag? You sound even more delusional than Bart is...Boeing would raise a holy shitstorm if the American military ever bought a major weapons platform from a European bidder instead of an American one. Heck, they whine when they lose out to Lockheed!

Neither company is innocent of getting subsidies, but the fact is that Boeing didn't even bother to bid on the contract that they filed a complaint about.

And if you had an inkling of Canadian history, you know that yes, our government has to stand up for Canadian companies - otherwise we'll have the same brain drain in the aviation industry we had 60 years ago when Diefenbaker scrapped the Arrow.

Frankly, it's time for Canada to just pony up and buy the Eurofighter Typhoon instead of ANY American plane. It might cost a bit more, but it better meets our needs of a twin-engine mult-role aircraft. The Super Hornet is a slight upgrade over the CF-18 and the F-35 is a POS that isn't suited to our needs. The only American plane that meets our true needs is the F-22 Raptor, and the US has refused to export it to any ally.

Whats with the insults? I get it that you are pissed with Boeing for their actions, but you don't have to get personal with me. I don't work for Boeing, or have any financial stake in the company. I pointed out Boeings borish behavior in my post and stated that Boeing does not usually have to wave the flag to get its way. I stand by that statement. The scenario that you mentioned of Boeing losing a contract to a European bidder is never going to happen. Boeing has the "Buy American Law" on their side. The department of defense is required to buy American first. Bidders must prove that over 50% of the product is American made. Eurofigther cannot even begin to bid for U.S. DOD contracts. They protect their manufacturing base as well and put their own people to work. The only way you would see the U.S. buying Eurofighter planes is if we were in WW3, and our own manufacturing plants were destroyed by enemy fire. Boeing only competes with other American contractors when it comes to DOD contracts. What good what it do for an American company to wave the American flag when they are competing with other American companies for the contract? I stand by my statement. The DOD does buy some foreign aircraft like the Brazilian A-29 because they partenered up with the American company Sierra Nevada, and they build a propeller driven airplane that no American company is interested in building. The Coast Guard is not under the DOD. They have more latitude to buy foreign products.

You are worried about the brain drain? That train left the station a long time ago. A few months ago during the heat wave planes were grounded in Nevada and Arizona. The only ones missing their connecting flights were flying on Bombardier aircraft. Boeing and Airbus were taking off on time. I don't mean to be curt, but lets not pretend that Bombardier is on the cutting edge of tecnology when it comes to aviation. They are not. By a long shot. They ARE on the cutting edge when it comes to shaking down tax payers. If you can find another North American company that is more proficient in fleecing taxpayers to stay in business (while at the same time continually moving jobs offshore), name them. That I would like to hear. Hey its your tax dollars. If you want to keep throwing good money after bad with no oversight whatsoever, thats your choice. Its no skin off my back.

You think Canada should purchase the Typhoon? Good choice! I say its an excellent aircraft. Extremely capable. I would ask if Eurofighter is bound by that same sweetheart deal that the U.S. foolishly agreed to about having to spend the exact same money in Canada that Canada spends on aircraft. Are they going to spend the same money in Canada, or are they going to tell you to go pound sand? If they are are locked into the same deal as the U.S. than go for it. Thats how I would play it.

You seem to think that I am a shill for Boeing. I am not. I just wanted to point out that that its not all black and white when it comes to supporting "our companies" these days. You think Boeing is a big bully? They are. Thats how they got were they are. As a union member, I have a problem with how they treated their union employees by giving them an ultimatum. An offer they "couldn't refuse" if you will. I was trying to point out the fact that Boeing is directly responsible for over 9000 Canadians being employed in Canada. They employ over 1400 employees in one plant alone in Winnipeg. Canada can tell Boeing to pound sand if they wish. Boeing could close that plant in Winnipeg. Thousands of people could lose their jobs. Tariffs could keep American companies from purchasing Bombardier planes. Bombardier could lay off even more people. I would like to see some calmer heads all around. Everyone is bitching about Trump and his America first policies, but other posters in this thread look like they want to emulate him. Everyone needs to take a step back, take a deep breath. You are pissed at Boeing, I get it. I am not defending them. I just think all this talk about "getting tough" is going to cost a lot of people their jobs. It doesn't have to be that way. The first reaction is to overreact.

[shockedcanadian]

rickc rickc:

bootlegga bootlegga:

Boeing doesn't wave the flag? You sound even more delusional than Bart is...Boeing would raise a holy shitstorm if the American military ever bought a major weapons platform from a European bidder instead of an American one. Heck, they whine when they lose out to Lockheed!

Neither company is innocent of getting subsidies, but the fact is that Boeing didn't even bother to bid on the contract that they filed a complaint about.

And if you had an inkling of Canadian history, you know that yes, our government has to stand up for Canadian companies - otherwise we'll have the same brain drain in the aviation industry we had 60 years ago when Diefenbaker scrapped the Arrow.

Frankly, it's time for Canada to just pony up and buy the Eurofighter Typhoon instead of ANY American plane. It might cost a bit more, but it better meets our needs of a twin-engine mult-role aircraft. The Super Hornet is a slight upgrade over the CF-18 and the F-35 is a POS that isn't suited to our needs. The only American plane that meets our true needs is the F-22 Raptor, and the US has refused to export it to any ally.

Whats with the insults? I get it that you are pissed with Boeing for their actions, but you don't have to get personal with me. I don't work for Boeing, or have any financial stake in the company. I pointed out Boeings borish behavior in my post and stated that Boeing does not usually have to wave the flag to get its way. I stand by that statement. The scenario that you mentioned of Boeing losing a contract to a European bidder is never going to happen. Boeing has the "Buy American Law" on their side. The department of defense is required to buy American first. Bidders must prove that over 50% of the product is American made. Eurofigther cannot even begin to bid for U.S. DOD contracts. They protect their manufacturing base as well and put their own people to work. The only way you would see the U.S. buying Eurofighter planes is if we were in WW3, and our own manufacturing plants were destroyed by enemy fire. Boeing only competes with other American contractors when it comes to DOD contracts. What good what it do for an American company to wave the American flag when they are competing with other American companies for the contract? I stand by my statement. The DOD does buy some foreign aircraft like the Brazilian A-29 because they partenered up with the American company Sierra Nevada, and they build a propeller driven airplane that no American company is interested in building. The Coast Guard is not under the DOD. They have more latitude to buy foreign products.

You are worried about the brain drain? That train left the station a long time ago. A few months ago during the heat wave planes were grounded in Nevada and Arizona. The only ones missing their connecting flights were flying on Bombardier aircraft. Boeing and Airbus were taking off on time. I don't mean to be curt, but lets not pretend that Bombardier is on the cutting edge of tecnology when it comes to aviation. They are not. By a long shot. They ARE on the cutting edge when it comes to shaking down tax payers. If you can find another North American company that is more proficient in fleecing taxpayers to stay in business (while at the same time continually moving jobs offshore), name them. That I would like to hear. Hey its your tax dollars. If you want to keep throwing good money after bad with no oversight whatsoever, thats your choice. Its no skin off my back.

You think Canada should purchase the Typhoon? Good choice! I say its an excellent aircraft. Extremely capable. I would ask if Eurofighter is bound by that same sweetheart deal that the U.S. foolishly agreed to about having to spend the exact same money in Canada that Canada spends on aircraft. Are they going to spend the same money in Canada, or are they going to tell you to go pound sand? If they are are locked into the same deal as the U.S. than go for it. Thats how I would play it.

You seem to think that I am a shill for Boeing. I am not. I just wanted to point out that that its not all black and white when it comes to supporting "our companies" these days. You think Boeing is a big bully? They are. Thats how they got were they are. As a union member, I have a problem with how they treated their union employees by giving them an ultimatum. An offer they "couldn't refuse" if you will. I was trying to point out the fact that Boeing is directly responsible for over 9000 Canadians being employed in Canada. They employ over 1400 employees in one plant alone in Winnipeg. Canada can tell Boeing to pound sand if they wish. Boeing could close that plant in Winnipeg. Thousands of people could lose their jobs. Tariffs could keep American companies from purchasing Bombardier planes. Bombardier could lay off even more people. I would like to see some calmer heads all around. Everyone is bitching about Trump and his America first policies, but other posters in this thread look like they want to emulate him. Everyone needs to take a step back, take a deep breath. You are pissed at Boeing, I get it. I am not defending them. I just think all this talk about "getting tough" is going to cost a lot of people their jobs. It doesn't have to be that way. The first reaction is to overreact.

Some solid logic again Rick. YOu will upset some with that.

The problem is Canadians will not adapt. Too many benefiting from government positions and they have no idea how real capitalism works. It is, by and large, this crony capitalism, fears of big government, among other issues, that drove Trump to win the election. Canada needs to support free markets and decrease the exploitation of the taxpayer, but we refuse to, because far too many have been dependent on this socialism. Some going back generations (they are the worst by the way, speak to some of them if you want to hear a drone).

We have lost our character in the security apparatus, which trickles down to greater social issues. We have lost our ability to innovate because we rely on government work. In the end we have lost the great opportunity to be independent by refusing to support this innovation and have either relied on American companies to play Big Brother and do the heavy lifting in Canada, or, they wisely snatch up our most intelligent and ambitious. Many such Canadian, of which, probably fell out of favour with the Powers that Be for one reason or another.

Such are the very slow, very difficult growing pains of a failed satellite of the monarchy. We had an envious position of being situated beside the greatest economic engine in history and we ruined it. It's quite unforunate but also quite deserved.

[Canadian_Mind]

rickc rickc:

bootlegga bootlegga:

Boeing doesn't wave the flag? You sound even more delusional than Bart is...Boeing would raise a holy shitstorm if the American military ever bought a major weapons platform from a European bidder instead of an American one. Heck, they whine when they lose out to Lockheed!

Neither company is innocent of getting subsidies, but the fact is that Boeing didn't even bother to bid on the contract that they filed a complaint about.

And if you had an inkling of Canadian history, you know that yes, our government has to stand up for Canadian companies - otherwise we'll have the same brain drain in the aviation industry we had 60 years ago when Diefenbaker scrapped the Arrow.

Frankly, it's time for Canada to just pony up and buy the Eurofighter Typhoon instead of ANY American plane. It might cost a bit more, but it better meets our needs of a twin-engine mult-role aircraft. The Super Hornet is a slight upgrade over the CF-18 and the F-35 is a POS that isn't suited to our needs. The only American plane that meets our true needs is the F-22 Raptor, and the US has refused to export it to any ally.

Whats with the insults? I get it that you are pissed with Boeing for their actions, but you don't have to get personal with me. I don't work for Boeing, or have any financial stake in the company. I pointed out Boeings borish behavior in my post and stated that Boeing does not usually have to wave the flag to get its way. I stand by that statement. The scenario that you mentioned of Boeing losing a contract to a European bidder is never going to happen. Boeing has the "Buy American Law" on their side. The department of defense is required to buy American first. Bidders must prove that over 50% of the product is American made. Eurofigther cannot even begin to bid for U.S. DOD contracts. They protect their manufacturing base as well and put their own people to work. The only way you would see the U.S. buying Eurofighter planes is if we were in WW3, and our own manufacturing plants were destroyed by enemy fire. Boeing only competes with other American contractors when it comes to DOD contracts. What good what it do for an American company to wave the American flag when they are competing with other American companies for the contract? I stand by my statement. The DOD does buy some foreign aircraft like the Brazilian A-29 because they partenered up with the American company Sierra Nevada, and they build a propeller driven airplane that no American company is interested in building. The Coast Guard is not under the DOD. They have more latitude to buy foreign products.

You are worried about the brain drain? That train left the station a long time ago. A few months ago during the heat wave planes were grounded in Nevada and Arizona. The only ones missing their connecting flights were flying on Bombardier aircraft. Boeing and Airbus were taking off on time. I don't mean to be curt, but lets not pretend that Bombardier is on the cutting edge of tecnology when it comes to aviation. They are not. By a long shot. They ARE on the cutting edge when it comes to shaking down tax payers. If you can find another North American company that is more proficient in fleecing taxpayers to stay in business (while at the same time continually moving jobs offshore), name them. That I would like to hear. Hey its your tax dollars. If you want to keep throwing good money after bad with no oversight whatsoever, thats your choice. Its no skin off my back.

You think Canada should purchase the Typhoon? Good choice! I say its an excellent aircraft. Extremely capable. I would ask if Eurofighter is bound by that same sweetheart deal that the U.S. foolishly agreed to about having to spend the exact same money in Canada that Canada spends on aircraft. Are they going to spend the same money in Canada, or are they going to tell you to go pound sand? If they are are locked into the same deal as the U.S. than go for it. Thats how I would play it.

You seem to think that I am a shill for Boeing. I am not. I just wanted to point out that that its not all black and white when it comes to supporting "our companies" these days. You think Boeing is a big bully? They are. Thats how they got were they are. As a union member, I have a problem with how they treated their union employees by giving them an ultimatum. An offer they "couldn't refuse" if you will. I was trying to point out the fact that Boeing is directly responsible for over 9000 Canadians being employed in Canada. They employ over 1400 employees in one plant alone in Winnipeg. Canada can tell Boeing to pound sand if they wish. Boeing could close that plant in Winnipeg. Thousands of people could lose their jobs. Tariffs could keep American companies from purchasing Bombardier planes. Bombardier could lay off even more people. I would like to see some calmer heads all around. Everyone is bitching about Trump and his America first policies, but other posters in this thread look like they want to emulate him. Everyone needs to take a step back, take a deep breath. You are pissed at Boeing, I get it. I am not defending them. I just think all this talk about "getting tough" is going to cost a lot of people their jobs. It doesn't have to be that way. The first reaction is to overreact.

I like this post. If it wasn't for Boot's getting personal, it would be possible to say that you are both "not wrong."

[BRAH]

If the Government ended taxpayer support for Bombardier how many jobs would be in jeopardy?