[OnTheIce]

Strutz Strutz:

Canada Post union calls for 30-day truce for talks without strike or lockout

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/canada-post-union-calls-for-30-day-truce-for-talks-without-strike-or-lockout-1.2978374

If they can't reach a deal, won't sit down to bargain and have refused binding arbitration, what's left?

[smorgdonkey]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

No, it's not.

Let's look deeper at facts only.

1. 2 of the other unions within CP have accepted the same deal that was offered to CUPW.

One of the unions which accepted this deal are the supervisors and they do not have the right to strike. They are handed their contract - I hope that they don't have to pay union dues for that. The other group is office staff and I can't really tell you much about their jobs but they are so few now that they normally accept concessions based upon "if CUPW gets this in their next contract then you will get it back but until then, it's no longer a benefit which you enjoy". For that matter, the supervisors pretty much get that deal too.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

2. One of the unions points it that women in rural areas are paid less. The union agreed to the wage scales that put women in that position.

The union just organized that group in 2004. They didn't gain anything under Harper and neither did any working person. So, it would be fair to say that they have been 'frozen' since they became CUPW members.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

3. The pension has a shortfall. 6.5 billion.

The corporation spends $11 million per year on their top 23 people. The corporation also spends about $630 million per year on supervisors who number in the 'one for every ten workers' range. There is a vast middle management of 1000 to 1500 people in the middle management classification with such titles as 'Director of Corporate Events' who all make $80 000-$150 000per year and up. Slash some of the dead weight there (even only half of it) and the pension would be fine...but no, the pigs have to stay at the trough.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

4. I don't dislike postal workers and I'm pretty well versed on some of their specific jobs.

Nobody should dislike postal workers...it would be like disliking the bus driver or any other working person.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

5. No union change to any pension plan in Canada has ever changed my pension. My pension is 100% self funded.

Cool, but it would be a major issue if you were provided a pension plan which you paid into and which promised certain things, then were told by a group of aristocrats who make huge bonuses off of your work that you shouldn't get it any more due to it being unaffordable (as they wipe frosting from their fat lips with a $50 bill.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

6. This isn't 1950's. Times change. The jobs and benefits of that era is long gone and expecting otherwise it completely out of touch with reality

The workers in CUPW have already accepted huge concessions in the past 10 years. Some of those things are (but not limited to):
-accepted smaller annual cost of living raises because the corporation wanted to implement a bonus plan. As expected, the bonuses came to an end about 4 years after they began BUT the management personnel still get their bonuses.
-accepted the loss of their sick leave plan and for that loss got $200 if they were full-time and $100 if they were part-time. The plan was replaced by an insurance company managed plan.

The jobs and benefits being reduced would be understandable if the operation were not viable but it is making money even with the HUGE burden of top-heavy management. Not to mention the management has made the choices to put new systems in place, to take loans out to buy machinery which processes the lettermail (the SHRINKING part of the business) and they chose to NOT negotiate for the past 5 months. They also advised their customers to find alternate carriers, thus driving their own business away. Now if that is not the stupidest thing...destroy your business due to your disdain for your own workers in order to try to get them to take less when they are the ones making your money.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

The workers won't win this fight. They never win this fight. They'll lose all kinds of money they'll never get back and the new contract will be the same as the one offered now. CUPW doesn't deserve more than the other two unions that have already signed their deal.

Once again, the other unions don't sign because they accept it, one doesn't have a choice and the other may as well not have one...plus, Harper was still in when they had their contract renewed. By the way, the supervisors got better raises than the CUPW personnel so why don't they offer that as a minimum?

As for winning it...you may be right. They might not win it but they aren't overpaid - anyone who makes much less than what they make are underpaid. Maybe $55-$60 thou per year if they are full time. Yeah, houses are expensive...just about EVERYWHERE.

Finally...when I did a letter carrier route it was harder than when I worked an oil service rig.

I was delivering one day and a guy working on a rock wall said "I don't envy you. I worked for those ***** for a while that's the worst job in the world".

Anyone who has the tenacity to invest in getting a job at Canada Post and can stomach the management and the place in general - a tip of the hat to you and best of luck. The struggle continues.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Strutz Strutz:

Canada Post union calls for 30-day truce for talks without strike or lockout

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/canada-post-union-calls-for-30-day-truce-for-talks-without-strike-or-lockout-1.2978374

If they can't reach a deal, won't sit down to bargain and have refused binding arbitration, what's left?

They have not left the bargaining table and the reason they don't accept binding arbitration is that the corporation has a history of disputing arbitrators' findings so, they suspect that if they would have accepted the 30 day deal that the corporation would have sat on their hands for another 30 days and then went to arbitration - what's 30 days when they sat on their hands for 5 months already?

What's left is that the government puts pressure on the corporation to relent on some issues and then when the Federal Review of Canada Post gets finished this year, they appoint someone or a group to get in there and clean management out. That's my hope.

[herbie]

Brenda Brenda:

Lousy $16?

Many people don't come close to making $16/hr...

Exactly the point I'm trying to make. That those people need to put the effort into bettering their wages and not trying to find comfort in dragging other people down. Which is what they've been playing people to achieve just that.
Seems smorgdonkey has a clue about bargaining.
Canada Post has rescinded their lockout. They won't lock out. If the union really, really wants to try - they're going to have to strike.
In the meantime there won't be any new hires. Shrinkage by attrition.
And gov't only fires the Deputy Ministers and above, or if Tory the workers too. The mandarins (as smorg points out) that sit on their butts and let things fester are never touched, ever.
Do the Liberals have the guts to after the middle? I doubt it very much.

[OnTheIce]

smorgdonkey smorgdonkey:

The union just organized that group in 2004. They didn't gain anything under Harper and neither did any working person. So, it would be fair to say that they have been 'frozen' since they became CUPW members.

So they negotiated the contract with the previous Liberal government and somehow, this lands on Harper? This lands on the union.

smorgdonkey smorgdonkey:

The corporation spends $11 million per year on their top 23 people. The corporation also spends about $630 million per year on supervisors who number in the 'one for every ten workers' range. There is a vast middle management of 1000 to 1500 people in the middle management classification with such titles as 'Director of Corporate Events' who all make $80 000-$150 000per year and up. Slash some of the dead weight there (even only half of it) and the pension would be fine...but no, the pigs have to stay at the trough.

So? I don't understand why people look at people that do DIFFERENT jobs and say "look, see how much they get paid". What CEO's and senior managers make is irrelevant to the discussion. They, like the union, negotiated their salary and I suspect it's in line with other roles of it's kind in the public or private sector.

smorgdonkey smorgdonkey:

Cool, but it would be a major issue if you were provided a pension plan which you paid into and which promised certain things, then were told by a group of aristocrats who make huge bonuses off of your work that you shouldn't get it any more due to it being unaffordable (as they wipe frosting from their fat lips with a $50 bill.

Right, but that's not happening. The pension changes will be grandfathered in. Current workers won't be effected by the pension changes.

smorgdonkey smorgdonkey:

The workers in CUPW have already accepted huge concessions in the past 10 years. Some of those things are (but not limited to):
-accepted smaller annual cost of living raises because the corporation wanted to implement a bonus plan. As expected, the bonuses came to an end about 4 years after they began BUT the management personnel still get their bonuses.
-accepted the loss of their sick leave plan and for that loss got $200 if they were full-time and $100 if they were part-time. The plan was replaced by an insurance company managed plan.

Welcome to reality! Do you know how many people are still struggling from job losses and such over the last 10 years? Do you know how many didn't receive a COTL increase at all during that era?

smorgdonkey smorgdonkey:

They also advised their customers to find alternate carriers, thus driving their own business away. Now if that is not the stupidest thing...destroy your business due to your disdain for your own workers in order to try to get them to take less when they are the ones making your money.

Not giving your workers everything they want isn't "disdain". It's being realistic. Canada Post has been profitable over the last couple years after many deep in the red and it needs to remain positive.

smorgdonkey smorgdonkey:

By the way, the supervisors got better raises than the CUPW personnel so why don't they offer that as a minimum?

Because they perform a different job. This union mentality that is someone else gets something, irregardless of position, we deserve that too is horribly outdated and unrealistic.

smorgdonkey smorgdonkey:

As for winning it...you may be right. They might not win it but they aren't overpaid - anyone who makes much less than what they make are underpaid. Maybe $55-$60 thou per year if they are full time. Yeah, houses are expensive...just about EVERYWHERE.

Never said they were overpaid nor did I say they should take a cut in pay.

[BRAH]

Thanos Thanos:

BRAH BRAH:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

I get all my packages via courier, my bills via email, and all CP delivers is flyers. At Christmas, I send postcards via CP, and that's the totality of my use for them. They made themselves irrelevant.

What's Canada Post?

They're the guys who crop off on average about two pieces of legit mail accompanied by twenty-five flyers per week.

That's why the blonde woman with the long legs drops things in my mail box.

[smorgdonkey]

The union wasn't able to negotiate anything for the rural workers. They have never been able to. Perhaps the corporation keeps a blockade in that area because it is extremely profitable -I don't know.

The corporation paid women less than men in some office jobs and it was found to be unjust. The corporation fought it all the way to the supreme court before finally paying. A period of 28 years. They cannot be trusted to be fair.

The amount that execs make DOES matter when they are arguing costs/sustainability and what is "fair" like their spokesperson is always saying in the media.

Their salaries are handed out. They get bonuses while TAKING from the workers.

Their salary is definitely on topic when their decisions have crippled the operation yet they consistently collect the bonuses and deflect the attention from their managerial incompetence to the workers' wages, benefits and pensions.

The fact that they have made profits for 17 or 18 of the past 20 years is in spite of the poor management and top heavy burden and all on the workers. Want to increase profits? It's the taxpayers' corporation. More profit means more goes into general revenue of the government for support of social programs or paying down debt. It could be hundreds of millions per year if they cut management in half.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

irregardless

Please tell me that was an auto correct or something.

Finally...here is one rich guy who gets it:
http://topinfopost.com/2014/06/30/ultra ... are-coming

One day it will come to blood and destruction again...just to try to achieve some semblance of 'fair'.

[OnTheIce]

smorgdonkey smorgdonkey:

The amount that execs make DOES matter when they are arguing costs/sustainability and what is "fair" like their spokesperson is always saying in the media.

What's fair for one worker in 1 job isn't the same for another. Trying to compare two different people in different jobs isn't a valid comparison.

smorgdonkey smorgdonkey:

Their salaries are handed out. They get bonuses while TAKING from the workers.

This contract is taking NOTHING from the current workforce. NOTHING! There's a wage increase on the table as well.

smorgdonkey smorgdonkey:

Their salary is definitely on topic when their decisions have crippled the operation yet they consistently collect the bonuses and deflect the attention from their managerial incompetence to the workers' wages, benefits and pensions.

The fact that they have made profits for 17 or 18 of the past 20 years is in spite of the poor management and top heavy burden and all on the workers. Want to increase profits? It's the taxpayers' corporation. More profit means more goes into general revenue of the government for support of social programs or paying down debt. It could be hundreds of millions per year if they cut management in half.

You can't have it both ways. You can't claim management "crippled" the organization while turning a profit 17 of the last 20 years.

Second, we're paying many people 50-60k per year in which the only skill requires is reading and walking. I'd consider that a great job.

So before you take aim at managers, consider the value we get for the front line workers.

[smorgdonkey]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

smorgdonkey smorgdonkey:

The amount that execs make DOES matter when they are arguing costs/sustainability and what is "fair" like their spokesperson is always saying in the media.

What's fair for one worker in 1 job isn't the same for another. Trying to compare two different people in different jobs isn't a valid comparison.

It's valid when THEY screw up and still get their bonuses yet say that the belt-tightening has to be done on the front line.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

smorgdonkey smorgdonkey:

Their salaries are handed out. They get bonuses while TAKING from the workers.

This contract is taking NOTHING from the current workforce. NOTHING! There's a wage increase on the table as well.

It is taking things from the current workforce. I have seen the offers personally. I will assume that you have only seen the news clips. The 'increase' is 0%, 1%, 1%, 1%. We just had a 0% year. That's not an increase. Furthermore, when you are hired, you are indentured and informed of these things that you earn - nobody should have to expect that the people who are supposed to run the operation will not be fair to them.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

smorgdonkey smorgdonkey:

Their salary is definitely on topic when their decisions have crippled the operation yet they consistently collect the bonuses and deflect the attention from their managerial incompetence to the workers' wages, benefits and pensions.

The fact that they have made profits for 17 or 18 of the past 20 years is in spite of the poor management and top heavy burden and all on the workers. Want to increase profits? It's the taxpayers' corporation. More profit means more goes into general revenue of the government for support of social programs or paying down debt. It could be hundreds of millions per year if they cut management in half.

You can't have it both ways. You can't claim management "crippled" the organization while turning a profit 17 of the last 20 years.

The profits could be huge BUT FOR THE CORPORATE waste. Yes...BOTH WAYS. They claim they need to make more profits yet they leech the place like mad.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Second, we're paying many people 50-60k per year in which the only skill requires is reading and walking. I'd consider that a great job.

If you could do it, I would be surprised after all, 6 or 7 of every 10 who try don't last 6 months. However, that's not the only thing that the employees do...here is a short list:

#1 - must pass Federal security clearance
#2 - must pass extensive general abilities testing
#3 - withstand constant workplace harassment from supervisors and the union can only grieve it and let it go through the channels which takes forever because the corporation can slow it down to a crawl.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

So before you take aim at managers, consider the value we get for the front line workers.

I have done it. It is a hard job with toxic management. You have to sit by the phone as a casual for years before you get hired part time and then years as part time before getting full time - in fact, I know multiple people who are part time and want to be full time who have over 15 years service in and are still part time. The point? It takes YEARS of effort and investment just to be hired.

Oh, and the pension? The employees pay for that too, it isn't just handed to them.

[OnTheIce]

smorgdonkey smorgdonkey:

It's valid when THEY screw up and still get their bonuses yet say that the belt-tightening has to be done on the front line.

How have they screwed up? The company is in the red.

smorgdonkey smorgdonkey:

It is taking things from the current workforce. I have seen the offers personally. I will assume that you have only seen the news clips. The 'increase' is 0%, 1%, 1%, 1%. We just had a 0% year. That's not an increase. Furthermore, when you are hired, you are indentured and informed of these things that you earn - nobody should have to expect that the people who are supposed to run the operation will not be fair to them.

So a 3% wage increase isn't an increase? When many in the private sector haven't seen that, it's a little rich for you to stand back and say a wage increase is actually a decrease.

smorgdonkey smorgdonkey:

The profits could be huge BUT FOR THE CORPORATE waste. Yes...BOTH WAYS. They claim they need to make more profits yet they leech the place like mad.

Profits could be larger if they cut workers wages....which they're not.

smorgdonkey smorgdonkey:

I have done it. It is a hard job with toxic management. You have to sit by the phone as a casual for years before you get hired part time and then years as part time before getting full time - in fact, I know multiple people who are part time and want to be full time who have over 15 years service in and are still part time. The point? It takes YEARS of effort and investment just to be hired.

Oh, and the pension? The employees pay for that too, it isn't just handed to them.

You're willing to label every single Manager at CP as "toxic" and expendable?

When the union has negotiated the rules for the part-time to full time transition. Take it up with them or find another job.

[smorgdonkey]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

smorgdonkey smorgdonkey:

It's valid when THEY screw up and still get their bonuses yet say that the belt-tightening has to be done on the front line.

How have they screwed up? The company is in the red.

When the management is always talking about costs and efficiency, they should be held to that standard as well.

They took out a multi-billion dollar loan to primarily buy machines to process the lettermail - the part of the business which is shrinking. If they hadn't done that, the profits would be through the roof.

The corporation's largest complaints are of their own doing. Their own doing. They love to blame the workers and the union though (as you seem to - well, you like to blame the union anyway).

I can see that you and I will never agree on this matter. You have absolutely no clue about Canada Post but you want to speak in general terms and situations which simply don't apply or are not true. My favourite is when you just make something up though. That's fine. Not everyone is wanting nor willing to learn or hear the truth. I have worked there and have many friends who work inside and outside.

[uwish]

sure, I see your point, and I agree a union is their to negotiate that's their primary role really. However; it doesn't change the fact that defined benefit pensions are non existence in non governmental jobs, that they can easily bankrupt governments (I don't think you actually NEED me to provide evidence on that point) and I have submitted 9 complaints about my stupid community postal box because I keep getting other people's mail. That has NOTHING to do with management but shitty workers.

So you can spout all you want about how we don't know what's going on inside Canpost, and I would grant you some of what you say; that changes nothing of any of the points I have made. NONE, and all it does if verify a collective position of us non Canpost types, that your union is asking for things that are not realistic and not found in any other non-governmental sector. Full stop.

[OnTheIce]

smorgdonkey smorgdonkey:

They took out a multi-billion dollar loan to primarily buy machines to process the lettermail - the part of the business which is shrinking. If they hadn't done that, the profits would be through the roof.

But they still have to process the mail. You can't just ignore aging equipment.

That's a silly suggestion.

smorgdonkey smorgdonkey:

The corporation's largest complaints are of their own doing. Their own doing. They love to blame the workers and the union though (as you seem to - well, you like to blame the union anyway).

There's no complaints here. There's reality. Reality says that any business, Crown Corp or not, has to keep their costs in line and one of their largest costs is labour.

smorgdonkey smorgdonkey:

I can see that you and I will never agree on this matter. You have absolutely no clue about Canada Post but you want to speak in general terms and situations which simply don't apply or are not true. My favourite is when you just make something up though. That's fine. Not everyone is wanting nor willing to learn or hear the truth. I have worked there and have many friends who work inside and outside.

When did I make something up? The irony of that is pretty strong considering you just tried to sell me on a 3% increase being a pay decrease.

You keep telling yourself that you're the expert. I'll keep laughing.

[smorgdonkey]

They didn't replace it because it was aging. They replaced it so they could present a corporation with all new equipment to potential buyers like UPS and the like and to decrease the number of workers (but not decrease the supervisors or white collars).

Yes. Reality is that it is a top-heavy mismanaged monster that needs to be cleaned-out and the biggest waste of resources is in management.

You made up that I was "willing to label every single manager at CP as toxic and expendable".

You keep laughing...I will keep laughing until you come back to reality. I suspect I will be laughing for a very long time...or you just show me where I said "every single manager at CP is toxic and expendable". I will wait.

Also the part about the 3% being a decrease...that would be cool to see. I insinuated that it is an insult because the hard work of the employees there kept the place going in spite of management and the CEO's 33% bonus every year. 3% in one percent increments after two years of zero is ridiculous. Anyone willing to accept that either needs to demand more or unionize and have their representatives demand more.

[smorgdonkey]

uwish uwish:

sure, I see your point, and I agree a union is their to negotiate that's their primary role really. However; it doesn't change the fact that defined benefit pensions are non existence in non governmental jobs, that they can easily bankrupt governments (I don't think you actually NEED me to provide evidence on that point) and I have submitted 9 complaints about my stupid community postal box because I keep getting other people's mail. That has NOTHING to do with management but shitty workers.

So you can spout all you want about how we don't know what's going on inside Canpost, and I would grant you some of what you say; that changes nothing of any of the points I have made. NONE, and all it does if verify a collective position of us non Canpost types, that your union is asking for things that are not realistic and not found in any other non-governmental sector. Full stop.

The pension plan is only hugely insolvent if every member retired today. That is a fact.

The long term issues will be exacerbated by not having new members pay into it and by allowing the corporation to continue not paying into the plan what they are supposed to pay into it. As I said before, cut the supervisors in half and you have $300 million more per year. That's only one area of cuts where there should be cuts.

Furthermore, it is disturbing that people begrudge a benefit which was promised, and is earned because they do not have it. Why not rail against the fat pigs at the top who are draining that trough? In the case of CP they are diverting the profits into their own pockets which should be going to pay for the benefits which they have promised to their employees and over & above that are supposed to be returned to the government (and therefore, the taxpayers').

In every good workforce there are some not so good workers which may be the case with your particular carrier. That shouldn't make the reputation of the entire workforce. The number of outstanding workers I met there is vast and the carriers I have had deliver to my residences before, during and since then have all been well worth their wages and then some.

In every toxic management, I am sure there are some good people too who can't influence the entire course of management.

In every forum there are a few slow types and "under 70s" (like ontheice) but that should not hold down the intellectual ability of the group as a whole.

[OnTheIce]

smorgdonkey smorgdonkey:

You made up that I was "willing to label every single manager at CP as toxic and expendable".

You keep laughing...I will keep laughing until you come back to reality. I suspect I will be laughing for a very long time...or you just show me where I said "every single manager at CP is toxic and expendable". I will wait.

When you refer to "toxic management" you're reffering to all managers. I know this may be beyond your understanding, but if you had said the company had some "toxic managers" that would have been more accurate.

When you label a company as having toxic management, you're referring to all management as a whole.

smorgdonkey smorgdonkey:

Also the part about the 3% being a decrease...that would be cool to see. I insinuated that it is an insult because the hard work of the employees there kept the place going in spite of management and the CEO's 33% bonus every year. 3% in one percent increments after two years of zero is ridiculous. Anyone willing to accept that either needs to demand more or unionize and have their representatives demand more.

You said, specifically:

$1:

The 'increase' is 0%, 1%, 1%, 1%. We just had a 0% year. That's not an increase.

3% increase is not a increase, in your terms.

smorgdonkey smorgdonkey:

In every forum there are a few slow types and "under 70s" (like ontheice) but that should not hold down the intellectual ability of the group as a whole.

If I'm "under 70" what does that say about you, the postal worker, when I surpassed your career best at 23 years old?

You're so far behind, you actually think you're ahead.