[martin14]

BRAH BRAH:

Syria is going to become Putin's Afghanistan.

Doubtful.
TBH, the Russsians will step up even more, not turn tail and run like us.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

I recall there used to be a surplussed Russian diesel submarine moored in the Gorge at Victoria for a few years. I toured the thing with Mrs. Bart thinking that things had really changed.

I was wrong.

I toured one a while back, spent the time thinking "We were afraid of this piece of junk ?"
First small eye opener.

TBH, the US has continued to poke at Russia, moving the NATO borders,
economic warfare with ME gas and other projects,
and perhaps the serious step of messing on the Russian's front porch of Ukraine.


I don't see the Russians being as aggressive as the Soviets were.

But they are now protecting their own.

[DrCaleb]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

I recall there used to be a surplussed Russian diesel submarine moored in the Gorge at Victoria for a few years. I toured the thing with Mrs. Bart thinking that things had really changed.

I saw bits of the Anechoic tile of the Typhoon "Red October" class submarine Akulya for sale on Ebay. Or so they said.

[BRAH]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

BRAH BRAH:

The Cold War never ended.

We had a brief interlude. Do recall that the USA and several other countries helped the Russians dispose of a lot of their stocks of chemical and biological weapons and we also helped them reprocess much of their weapons-grade nuclear material into fuel.

They also made some money by selling demilitarized military equipment to Western collectors. I recall there used to be a surplussed Russian diesel submarine moored in the Gorge at Victoria for a few years. I toured the thing with Mrs. Bart thinking that things had really changed.

I was wrong.

The Cold War paused which gave Russia an opportunity to restructure itself getting rid of dead weight as the USSR was stretched to thin to counter Reagan and NATO's moves which eventually lead to it's collapse. At the same time the real hardliners like Putin never gave up they just waited and rebuilt while the West's arrogance of how the USSR was defeated gave a false sense of security.

martin14 martin14:

BRAH BRAH:

Syria is going to become Putin's Afghanistan.

Doubtful.
TBH, the Russsians will step up even more, not turn tail and run like us.

Was thinking of Afghanistan during the 80's when the USSR invaded, occupied and left after the insurgency drove them out.

[ccga3359]

andyt andyt:

ccga3359 ccga3359:

Now Turkey is claiming that Russia is violating Turkish airspace 10 time before ordering the plane to be shot down.

Link? Are you sure you didn't misunderstand again? Russia has repeatedly violated Turkish airspace, this isn't the first instance. So maybe the 10x refers to other incidents. In this case, Turkey says they warned the plane that it was approaching Turkish airspace and that it then entered it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... trees.html

$1:

The Turkish army said the pilots of the Russian jet had been warned 'ten times in the space of five minutes' before the plane was shot down, a statement which has since been backed up by the U.S. military.

I'm not disputing the Russians violated Turkish airspace, this time nor in the recent past. Hell Britain seems to be send up RAF fighters every other week when Russian air force planes fly very near British airspace. I do dispute the Turkish claim which by extension makes me question Turkish intentions and support.

[martin14]

ccga3359 ccga3359:

I'm not disputing the Russians violated Turkish airspace, this time nor in the recent past. Hell Britain seems to be send up RAF fighters every other week when Russian air force planes fly very near British airspace. I do dispute the Turkish claim which by extension makes me question Turkish intentions and support.

Yep, this is the same as the US shooting down a Canadian fighter for flying over Point Roberts.





1.2 miles of Turkish territory.

17 seconds inside Turkish airspace.

This is what the Turks say. And for this, they shoot a Russian fighter down.

I agree the Turks have the right to defend themselves. But this is people dying for splitting hairs.

Hope those Turkmen like eating dirt and seeing Allah, I think they'll be doing both next few weeks.

[BeaverFever]

The excuse from Turkey that this was a routine exercise of sovereignty is a joke because these kind of border transgressions happen between countries all the time and usually don't end up with shoot-downs.

Clearly this is because Russia supports the Assad regime and has been bombing the Turkmen, who are an anti-Assad militia in Syria of Turkic ethnicity. I can only assume that Turkey warned Russia at the diplomatic level that they would no longer tolerate Russia passing through Turkish airspace to attack the Turkmen. I mean maybe they didn't but this is a big deal and usually things like this are planned in advance and given the green light from the very top

[BartSimpson]

martin14 martin14:

Yep, this is the same as the US shooting down a Russian fighter for flying over Point Roberts.

FTFY 'cause we'd for damn sure shoot down a Russian warplane flying over Point Roberts.

And that's assuming that Canada didn't get him first!

[BartSimpson]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Clearly this is because Russia...has been bombing the Turkmen, who are...of Turkic ethnicity.

Nail. Head.

[Jabberwalker]

martin14 martin14:

This map, but no legend to go with it.

Blue line is the border between Turkey and Syria, I think.

IF the red line is the Russian flight path, and the Turks shot it down for that
teensy tiny little incursion.... that's pretty pathetic.

If this map is true, there is no way in hell that the Russian pilot could keep track of whether he was over that little salient or not, especially at the sort of speeds that a modern fighter travels at.

What exactly do the Turks figure they will gain from this? When this war is done, when the Kurds are one of the victors demanding our support for their new country, Turkey could end up being a sort of enemy of ours. Pissing off the Russians as well doesn't help them in the least.

[BeaverFever]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

martin14 martin14:

This map, but no legend to go with it.

Blue line is the border between Turkey and Syria, I think.

IF the red line is the Russian flight path, and the Turks shot it down for that
teensy tiny little incursion.... that's pretty pathetic.

If this map is true, there is no way in hell that the Russian pilot could keep track of whether he was over that little salient or not, especially at the sort of speeds that a modern fighter travels at.

What exactly do the Turks figure they will gain from this? When this war is done, when the Kurds are one of the victors demanding our support for their new country, Turkey could end up being a sort of enemy of ours. Pissing off the Russians as well doesn't help them in the least.

Pretty sure Russians can follow their flight plans. Don't know if they have AWACS in the area but that would also help.

[andyt]

Whatever. They had 10 warnings in 5 minutes and didn't get the message. And these incursions have been ongoing.

[peck420]

andyt andyt:

Whatever. They had 10 warnings in 5 minutes and didn't get the message. And these incursions have been ongoing.

So what?

This is a country that violates other nation's airspace more frequently than Russia ever has.

Will you still say 'whatever' when the Greeks decide to do the same to Turkey? They only warned Turkey 2,244 times...in 2014. And, it's not like Turkey would be capable of responding. That would force NATO's hand, even against one of their own.

Turkey is playing a dangerous game. Not because they chose to down a Russian aircraft, but because this sort of BS is something they employ against their neighbours on a routine basis. Neighbours who are all watching.

This was not worth 17 seconds of 'sovereignty', no matter which way they slice it.

[ccga3359]

Turkey is doing this as a member of NATO. it's like a little kid picking a fight with the big kid and the stepping back and expecting his friends do the fighting for him.

[ccga3359]

Russia's version of events that the SU-24 was 4 km from Turkish airspace. http://sputniknews.com/military/20151124/1030695406/mod-su-24-flight-path.html

[BRAH]

$1:

The Russian fighter jet was shot down by Sunni Turks who are aiding and abetting ISIS.